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Sailboarder
Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 656
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 Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:38 am Post subject: |
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itiandro,
How was the Vitesse in very low wind? My old 84 NP Sailboard 6.0 dacron sail is about 225 boom. They called it a fat head, it has a very flexible top batten plus 2 mini-battens to reduce leech flutter. It's very nice until maybe 10kts, or a little less. Then it becomes awful.
Since you seem to look after some performance, maybe you'd like a Kona sail in the end. A 6.6 would be too small for racing, but it will work very well too. |
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ittiandro
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| joethewindsufa wrote: | have written a post on "modern" longboard sails: http://joewindsurfer.blogspot.ca/2014/03/longboard-sails_4.html
i started with no batten long boom sails - HATED EM
older fully battened sails were MUCH better
BUT they were OLD  n ragged = die
so far the "best" longboard sails I have used are
MauiSails MS-2 with 2 cambers (used with cambers out too)
SailWorks Retro with no cambers but big downhaul
HostSailsMaui SpeedFreak 8.5 no cambers and BIG range
as you know, for my weight and size i use 8.x
if i considered racing, i would be using 9.x
For you it is probably 7.x
One wants a sail that is easy to handle if not racing and lots of range
with the HSM SPF 8.5 i can go from 12 knots to 20 knots
i am NOT a big fan of LONG booms NOR half battens
can be with or without cambers
needs to be either powerful (grunt / PULL) or BIG range
but that's just my take on it...
managed to get out about 40 times in 2015
78% of the outings were on a longboard
84% were using a sail in the 8.x range
also, i am NOT sure WindSUPping is longboarding in light winds
often they are "wave" sailing ... |
SUP’s vs longboards. Interesting point. What is the difference in subplaning performance? May be somebody can elaborate on this
Concerning the battened vs unbattened issue, I’m sure that if I were comfortable with a.. 9.5 or more, even a..log would fly off in the lightest of winds..(Of course I am being paradoxical, but there is always a grain of truth in paradox..)
The reasons why I am looking into older softer ( =unbattened) sails are that :
1) I feel uncomfortable (very uncomfortable) with sails past the 6 or 6.5 m2 size and
2) I believe that unbattened or partially battened sails by being softer (= more shape) allow to keep the power of larger conventional sails while being significantly smaller.
The 1st reason ( uncomfortable with large sails) is subjective or perhaps a question of technique, but I prefer, if possible, to sail with equipment which is easier to handle ( smaller sails) and more forgiving of technique flaws which may take a long time to correct.
Somebody has argued against the 2nd reason on the basis of technical reasons which perhaps I do not fully understand. However, as mentioned in earlier posts, in my experiments I found that sails become significantly more powerful after shortening the central battens or removing them altogether. Experts may argue that there are downsides somewhere ( loss of balance, backhanded etc) in drastically changing the design in this manner, but may be these downsides are an issue only for hyper-sensitive experts and only in higher winds. As far as I can tell, at my level and in light winds sailing, removing the battens has never caused any perceivable problem.
It can perhaps be argued that one can play with the out-haul to give more shape to a conventional sail, thereby getting the same effect of a soft unbattened sail. Nobody has raised this point yet. Maybe it is worthwhile exploring.
Ittiandro |
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ittiandro
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Sailboarder wrote: | itiandro,
How was the Vitesse in very low wind? My old 84 NP Sailboard 6.0 dacron sail is about 225 boom. They called it a fat head, it has a very flexible top batten plus 2 mini-battens to reduce leech flutter. It's very nice until maybe 10kts, or a little less. Then it becomes awful.
Since you seem to look after some performance, maybe you'd like a Kona sail in the end. A 6.6 would be too small for racing, but it will work very well too. |
The Vitesse ( which I still have for sale on Kijiji) was a problem FOR ME because of the extremely long boom ( 255 cm) . I tested it only once or twice in 10-12 knts, perhaps more with the gusts. Very powerful! The ideal size would have been around 5.5 m2 in those winds. At times I felt a bit overpowered as I never felt before. Maybe the width of the boom added to the problem. This experience has confirmed how well the "soft", partially battened / half-battened design of those sails makes up power-wise for the decreased size. To me, it felt even larger than the 8.5 m2 Severne Focus I have.
Ittiandro |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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ittiandro. You persist in making the assumption that because a long-boomed unbattened sail FEELS more powerful (i.e. it pulls on your arms more) than a fully battened sail, that it therefore must be better in lighter winds. That pull you feel is not necessarily in the right direction. i.e. too much back-handed and sideways pressure for best efficiency in moving a longboard forwards!
A modern fully battened sail may FEEL less powerful, but the forces are better directed (ie forward drive) to power a longboard, on ANY point of sail. Try forcing upwind with a long-boomed unbattened billowing sail against somebody using a modern correctly designed and cut longboard sail. No contest.
As for S.U.P. boards, are not most designed with more rocker, for use in surf.? Hardly as fast and efficient as a proper longboard, surely?
I repeat, a fully battened sail which is purpose designed for a proper longboard (many older pre-twist era sails still fit the bill for lighter winds) will be FAR superior to anything else, for the intended purpose! |
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ittiandro
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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| Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| GURGLETROUSERS wrote: | ittiandro. You persist in making the assumption that because a long-boomed unbattened sail FEELS more powerful (i.e. it pulls on your arms more) than a fully battened sail, that it therefore must be better in lighter winds. That pull you feel is not necessarily in the right direction. i.e. too much back-handed and sideways pressure for best efficiency in moving a longboard forwards!
A modern fully battened sail may FEEL less powerful, but the forces are better directed (ie forward drive) to power a longboard, on ANY point of sail. Try forcing upwind with a long-boomed unbattened billowing sail against somebody using a modern correctly designed and cut longboard sail. No contest.
As for S.U.P. boards, are not most designed with more rocker, for use in surf.? Hardly as fast and efficient as a proper longboard, surely?
I repeat, a fully battened sail which is purpose designed for a proper longboard (many older pre-twist era sails still fit the bill for lighter winds) will be FAR superior to anything else, for the intended purpose! |
Well, it is not so much a question of assumptions as of an insight gained by my actual experience.
First, with the sails I am referring to ( unbattened or partially battened) the stronger PULL I feel in my arms as compared to larger, fully battened sails is neither illusory nor… sideways, as you say . On the contrary, it is a forward motion as strong, smooth and unhesitating as it can be! To argue for the contrary is a bit like trying to question observational data when they don’t fit into theory. If factual observation contradicts the theory, it should be the theory to be changed, not the reverse!
Once more, I can guarantee you that my 5.8 m2 with the central battens removed was able to move me and move me forward(!) in the same light winds which were insufficient to move the board with a conventional fully battened 8.5 m2. sail. You can see it by yourself if you have a chance to do the same modifications I did.
Secondly, the longer booms have never been part of the equation in my experiments. The modified 5.8 m2 called for a regular boom. As I mentioned elsewhere, though, I once tried an old partially battened N.P. Vitesse sail ( 6.5 m2) dating back to the 80's or 90's and which required an extra-long 255 cm boom. It was a real disaster. The pull was very very strong and probably, as you hinted, with a sideways component, very difficult to handle, but this was not the case with regular booms.
As usual, truth is somewhere in the middle. Perhaps for $ 50 I have nothing to lose in buying an old N.P. Garda 6.2 m2, fully battened dating back to the 90’s., which has been offered to me. I’ll think it over and let you know ( next summer!) if I buy it..
As usual this Forum is invaluable in the amount of knowledge one gains through it, even when disagreement at times occurs on certain issues.
Ittiandro |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:58 am Post subject: |
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ittiandro. If what you claim is true, i.e. that your unbattened or partially battened sail is as efficient ( MORE so you appear to be saying) than a purpose built equivalent fully battened longboard sail, you must be able to demonstrate that 'fact'!
Have you done a head to head trial against any other on similar boards but different sails to prove your point? Impressions are not reliable, but head to head testing with others is.
It is understandable that S.U.P. sails are simple, and have in many cases reverted to the old semi battened style for ease of use in the S.U.P. sailing mode. They are not really intended to be challenging purpose built longboard sails for speed and efficiency. Horses for courses, as they say! |
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GURGLETROUSERS
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2643
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 3:37 am Post subject: |
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Incidentally, as I understand your claim, you took what you called an ordinary smallish PLANING oriented sail and altered the battens to give greater light wind performance. I don't dispute that you achieved that end.
What I do say though, is that almost any older fully battened longboard type sail of the pre twistleech 80's era, would have done just as well without any alterations at all. (Probably even better.)
I would bet that a simple head to head contest would prove that point. |
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ittiandro
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| GURGLETROUSERS wrote: | Incidentally, as I understand your claim, you took what you called an ordinary smallish PLANING oriented sail and altered the battens to give greater light wind performance. I don't dispute that you achieved that end.
What I do say though, is that almost any older fully battened longboard type sail of the pre twistleech 80's era, would have done just as well without any alterations at all. (Probably even better.)
I would bet that a simple head to head contest would prove that point. |
Yes, you understand correctly. Unfortunately, I haven't done a head to head comparison with an another sailor and I grant you that it is possible that somebody with a battened sail would do just as well as me or even outperform me ( even though other variables like his/her skill level, the weight, etc. may affect the performance ).
What I am saying, though, is that RELATIVE TO ME repeat RELATIVE TO ME and MY previous experience, the performance improved after I removed the battens. A coincidence? Perhaps. But if this is not due to the battens'removal, I don't see which other variables have come into play. But yes, again, somebody else may run faster than me with a battened sail, old or new . This does not disprove my finding, i.e. my contention that the batten factor has been pivotal.
As an analogy, if my athletic performance in the Boston Marathon drastically improved after I lost 30 lbs, my contention that the weight loss was the cause cannot be disproved by arguing that somebody 30 lbs heavier has performed just as well I did !
By the way, I am going to pick up today a 2nd hand N.P. Garda sail 6.2 from the 90's fully battened . I thought for $ 50 I have nothing to lose to try it out.
I'll let you know next summer how it performs!
Take care
Ittiandro |
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kmf
Joined: 02 Apr 2001
Posts: 503
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Amazing....6 pages to justify a $50 sail......
KMF |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope that you checked the condition of the monofilm of the NP sail before spending your money. Once monofilm gets super chrispy, it starts to fail and the sail is over. However, maybe you've locked on to an old sail in great condition that was hardly used, and you'll be able get a lot of use out of it. Good luck. |
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