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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158
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 Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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After a session of underpowered / uncomfortably powered rides, I focused on these few things:
- Look for a strong gust or solid winds, at slower speeds prefer a tack
- Build up the most speed (was not overpowered unfortunately)
- Back up both hands, this helps keep the mast farther away bleeding all unwanted power
- Let the sail pull me towards the apex of the turn extending front arm and pulling on the rear
It wasn't that bad, heading into the jibe with enough speed was key not to be caught up by the wind.
It felt as if jibing with speed was more important than jibing over smooth terrain. That's new to me.
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | (I wouldn't know about Antione's, with big fins and sails and super-wide boards and all that). My entire jibe, done right, lasts < two seconds from beam reach to beam reach, so I don't hit rows of bumps unless I screw up. |
And in your own words is a huge reason why the step jibe is taught by all the major schools & instructors. The step jibe can be used on all types of equipment in all types of conditions, your's won't. So if using specific equipment in specific conditions you are correct, there is more than one way to skin a cat. But if talking about jibing across the spectrum on conditions & equipment than the step jibe is skinning a cat & your jibe is skinning the cats leg. Perhaps this is the main reason for your many conflicts?
Coachg |
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cgoudie1
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2599
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:22 am Post subject: |
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For powered up conditions I switch my feet after the sail flip, for me, it's
smoother, with less potential to upset the board during the transition, plus,
I like riding swells switch stance, so if I decide to turn back, I'm already
nearly there. With underpowered sailing, I find step jibes useful, for
keeping my plane going, especially on exit, but it does require some
additional attention to foot work. Basically, I'll jibe anyway I can to exit
on a full plane, but in overpowered conditions I'm not a step jibe fan.
-Craig |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | | [Something undefined] is a huge reason why the step jibe is taught by all the major schools & instructors. The step jibe can be used on all types of equipment in all types of conditions, your's won't. So if using specific equipment in specific conditions you are correct, there is more than one way to skin a cat. But if talking about jibing across the spectrum on conditions & equipment than the step jibe is skinning a cat & your jibe is skinning the cats leg. Perhaps this is the main reason for your many conflicts? Coachg |
WHY those schools teach step jibes is a whole 'nuther discussion, beginning with "Do any of those schools insist, like many posters here do, that we never advance past the step jibe?"
This thread isn’t about “all types of equipment in all types of conditions”. It’s about jibing powered to overpowered, and I’ve seen no indication Manuel is asking about Formula boards and giant sails. My approach is MUCH simpler than the step jibe (that’s why I chose it over the more confusing step jibe) and it works extremely well for 7.5 sq meters and down, almost any type of board 125 liters and down (it may work on bigger or wider boards; I wouldn’t know), on any terrain from glass to the Grand Canyon, at any measurable wind speed above Brownian motion (random molecular drift), and at any power level if one doesn't bury a slogging rail. Since I’ve personally laid eyes on a TOTAL of fewer than 10 Formula boards in my whole life, that’s good enough for me and the VAST majority of gear and sailors I see year in and year out.
I also doubt the step jibe works well with small sinkers, especially if marginally powered at the moment, whether it's on the Columbia or Mud Lake, Utah; way too much time, footwork, precision, rows of chop/swell, etc. to do the fox trot on the deck.
I much prefer swish/spin/hop/grab/gone. It not only sounds simpler, it IS much simpler.
And therein lies the conflict you mention. If I ever stop insisting that there are few hard, fast, inviolable, RULES … i.e., “MUSTS” … in WSing, please send the EMTs, because my heart probably stopped beating. All this “You MUST: step jibe, avoid sinkers, use cams, hold your line if on starboard, transfer to the Pentagon, manhandle the mast and boom to jibe the rig, strap in FFF, use harness lines longer than your arms, rig your booms at face height to make sure you can’t rest them on the board tail in waterstarts, blindly accept 35 days of devastating pelvic radiation JUST IN CASE your returning cancer lies in that region, not even TRY to slash 90 degrees (let alone 135) with back foot toe pressure alone, coast to a stop before stepping off your board, use 16’ SUPs in big swell, never exceed posted speed limits even briefly, accept board damage rather than pad the vulnerable spots, use waist harnesses, minimize your consumption of sat fat and cholesterol, race and loop, mow the lawn or go DTL, sail three 360s if you fail to shout “Starboard” at the Hatchery on July 4, jump off your board and let a pinching kiter or Formula board go through from behind, and SO much more” is total BS.
“Conflict” requires at least two points of view. My POV, stated above, is RIGHT. It’s that frigging simple outside a sanctioned IYRU event or a police intervention in a Dallas pool party gone bad. Anyone who orders noobs or OPs to do everything their way or hit the highway is likely to get some resistance … “conflict” if loaded terms must be used … in the interest of actually helping the person asking the questions. MANY excellent sailors here have agreed with many of my solutions. Craig just said step jibes are sometimes a hassle, YOU and Lee and others agreed IIRC that in some circumstances BFF helps, I avoided the Pentagon, I got most of my jibe sequence from yesteryear’s top instructor Cort Larned, apparently radiation would have ended my WSing permanently with zero medical benefit, my 8-3 windSUP is a hoot in big swell, and so forth and so on. Nobody between diehard far left and far right demagogues ever died saying "I needed more rules in my life".
If you folks want to end the conflicts, stop shouting “MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY” especially to sailors wanting help, stop the baseless personal attacks (partly by getting in the attackers’ faces about it), and stop giving so damn many orders. I swear this forum is worse than the military in that respect. Windsurfing ain’t the Army, this forum ain’t Boot Camp, we ain’t drill instructors, and NONE of us knows everything there is to know about WSing. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| manuel wrote: | After a session of underpowered / uncomfortably powered rides, I focused on these few things:
1. ... at slower speeds prefer a tack
2. Build up the most speed (was not overpowered unfortunately)
3. Back up both hands, this helps keep the mast farther away bleeding all unwanted power
4. Let the sail pull me towards the apex of the turn extending front arm and pulling on the rear
5. It felt as if jibing with speed was more important than jibing over smooth terrain.
6. That's new to me. |
1. Or learn to pivot jibe at subplaning speeds; it's optional, and is useful practice for planing conditions. My approach works great with that.
2. As my tutorial says, "if you're not outrunning your shadow ..."
3. Considering #2 ... WHAT unwanted power? Besides, the best way I know to not just "bleed off excess power" but shut OFF the power even when jibing genuinely overpowered is to oversheet. As my jibe tips explain, if your back hand is working hard, you waited too long to oversheet (and to tip the mast forward and to the inside if necessary). Next time shut off the power BEFORE your back hand gets overloaded.
4. Yup; the bow and arrow stance. Front hand holding the bow (or stiff-arming any tacklers), back hand pulling back the string and arrow (more like somewhere behind your butt or back ... whatever it takes to keep your sail foot or clew from dragging in the water ... unless you WANT to your clew to skim or bounce off the surface, which is sorta neat).
5. HELL, yes, speed is usually the most important factor to planing through a jibe. The other dozen important factors run from #2 through #13. Without sufficient entry speed we WILL stop planing ... like thousands of botched jibes I observe every day on the water. At some point, when you get more comfortable sailing and jibing flat out in any amount of chop, flat spots are just a bonus, not a necessity.
6. Then you haven't seen my jibe tips. Google them up; many people have thanked me for getting them past their jibing barriers. |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: |
1. And therein lies the conflict you mention.
2. My approach is MUCH simpler than the step jibe (that’s why I chose it over the more confusing step jibe) and it works extremely well for 7.5 sq meters and down, almost any type of board 125 liters and down
3. (it may work on bigger or wider boards; I wouldn’t know)
4. I also doubt the step jibe works well with small sinkers, especially if marginally powered at the moment
5. I much prefer swish/spin/hop/grab/gone. It not only sounds simpler, it IS much simpler.
6. "Do any of those schools insist, like many posters here do, that we never advance past the step jibe?"
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1. I’m just guessing at the cause of the conflict. The list of people you appear to have conflicts with is larger than any Bible ever written by man. It is obviously not your personality so I’m just guessing at a possible cause.
2. Fair enough. But please note that not all boards larger than 125 liters are formula boards. There is a very large market, possibly the largest market, of non formula boards larger than 125 liters.
3. Good to see you are man enough to admit that.
4. I can answer that one. I find the step jibe works fine with sinkers, especially if marginally or underpowered as I have complete control of the rig throughout the jibe. Much better for me to switch feet & come out clew first if under powered on a sinker than to flip the sail and pray for enough wind to hold me up while standing on the back of the board in a switch stance. Going down with the ship Captain.
5. I can’t argue with that.
6. Here is where I am confused? Above you say your jibe is simpler than a step jibe, no? Then by your definition you would advance from an Iso jibe to a step jibe, not the other way around correct?
Coachg |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| One wonders what we were all supposed get out isobars' 18:14 post. Why does he have such a hard time getting along? |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: |
1. I’m just guessing at the cause of the conflict. The list of people you appear to have conflicts with is larger than any Bible ever written by man. It is obviously not your personality so I’m just guessing at a possible cause.
2. Fair enough. But please note that not all boards larger than 125 liters are formula boards. There is a very large market, possibly the largest market, of non formula boards larger than 125 liters.
3. Good to see you are man enough to admit that.
4. I can answer that one. I find the step jibe works fine with sinkers, especially if marginally or underpowered as I have complete control of the rig throughout the jibe. Much better for me to switch feet & come out clew first if under powered on a sinker than to flip the sail and pray for enough wind to hold me up while standing on the back of the board in a switch stance. Going down with the ship Captain.
5. I can’t argue with that.
6. Here is where I am confused? Above you say your jibe is simpler than a step jibe, no? Then by your definition you would advance from an Iso jibe to a step jibe, not the other way around correct?
Coachg |
1. I don't start the personal conflicts, and can't control others' desire to rely on them rather than relevant adult conversation. As for conflicts regarding WSing technique, how many WSing challenges do YOU think must be met in one and only one way?
2. I don't even understand your comment. I simply haven't ridden a WS board >115L since about 1990, so I can't vouch for their jibing techniques. For all I know one can jibe a Formula board the way I jibe, but I can't make that claim. Heck, I tried one Naish wave board that I thought jibed like a bus ... too much volume or flat or tail or something ... it just wanted to cruise and swing wiiiiiiiide in the turns. It was the only exception to my otherwise universal propensity for Naish waves.
3. Once again ... I don't get it. "Man enough" to "admit" #2? If that's all it takes to prove my manhood, how about "I haven't ridden a black bicycle" or "I haven't rigged a green sail on a blue mast". 
4. Ahhh, I see your problem with jibing nonplaning sinkers. When I do it, I come out neither clew first, switchstance, nor near the back of the board. Instead, I jibe like I normally would -- rig spinning untouched in the air as my feet lift off the deck and return wherever they need to be ... well forward if on a small board in subplaning wind (or, as my balance slides into the sunset, just drop in and wait for a gust). So while you exit clew first, switchstanced, and too far back, I exit with my feet and hands and weight on the new course, right where they need to be to keep the board level in pitch and roll, pump and/or grab the next gust, hit Da Plane, slip into the straps, and get out of Dodge.
6. Nope. "Overly complicated" and "advanced" are not synonymous, and step jibes and Isojibes are not mutually exclusive anyway. I sometimes simply bypass all those interim dance steps I never could master anyway and just move my feet directly from their carving stations (front strap, lee rail) to the same spots step jibers do upon exiting the jibe. i.e., I subconsciously try to put my feet where the physics of each jibe wants them to be. When I clog my simple mind with all them "must do" dance steps between starboard and port, it bogs down and I fall down. I find it MUCH simpler and -- on my better days -- more reliable to just throw the rig where it needs to be for the next reach, lift my feet off the deck and set them back down where they need to be in preparation for the next reach, reestablish contact with the rig sheeted in on the new reach, MAYBE even land hooked in on the new reach, and sail away at full speed. Done right, it's like bouncing off a soft pool table rail from port to starboard, as opposed to driving around a freeway cloverleaf.
Last edited by isobars on Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Got some nice ones today, I thought I was going to blow out on one of them, it felt like I compressed my spine from the g-forces!
Anyway, the most difficult part of it all was to take my rear foot out and balance on the front one during that split second at full speed going downwind over chop/swell. Then I tried to be as smooth as possible not to upset the board and keep the plane during sail flip.
The more speed the more the board would spring out of the turn from pressing on harder waters.
The current board I have is new-to-me and it's taking me some time to learn our it feels on a rail.
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DanWeiss
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2296
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: |
WHY those schools teach step jibes is a whole 'nuther discussion, beginning with "Do any of those schools insist, like many posters here do, that we never advance past the step jibe?"
SNIP |
A bit of history. The first shortboard jibes were step jibes since that's pretty much what comes from sailing longboards. In higher winds on the early planing shortboards, the reverse foot jibe came into fashion out of necessity. The boards were so darn sinky, the sail's center of effort so high and its stability so poor that stepping and flipping simply wasn't fast.
The step and clew-first jibe returned as slalom boards with mast boxes far forward began to show up. Its all about rocker line and foam flow.
Teaching the reverse foot jibe to someone new to the sport or learning intermediate skills makes for a lot of wasted time. The unwinding of the hips and removal of the foot from the now-leeward strap tends to force the board to round up. Stepping forward as the clew moves through does not because it allows the student to drop from a plane in a stable position and without getting wet.
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