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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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 Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:02 pm Post subject: Getting hurt or how to better jump landings |
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Well sooner or later I knew something would have to break!
If you have any tips for landing more safely when things don't go as planned...
Upon entering the water on my back, my front foot leaves the strap, then it's a little blurry but I think the board slides under my butt and I feel my knee crack. I have little wind in my sail and is why I disappear under water.
Now my knee was already weak due to another jump gone wrong skiing. The sprain was severe then but I didn't have surgery.
Here is the sequence, I start off late on the lip and am sent a little backwards. I try to slow the backwards momentum by throwing the mast forward but lack wind to fully recover, maybe I should have attempted a backloop?
Nothing like a good washing with a dislocated kneecap!
Finally, after a few more waves, I was able to put it back in place and head back to the beach on one leg.
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Every jump and landing is different. My basic rules include:
1. Keep my quads and hams strong in the gym. They are vital to knee integrity.
2. If a knee starts to hurt under duress, I let go the booms and get the hell out of that strap to take the pressure off that knee. That's a few times per season thing advised by my orthopedic surgeon years before I exploded one knee by violating #4.
3. If one foot comes out its the strap accidentally in any awkward way or moment, especially a jump, I get the other foot out, too. No way in hell I'm sacrificing a knee to my ego. I bail in that manner maybe 3-5 times a season.
4. DO NOT LAND A JUMP WITH YOUR KNEE STRAIGHT. That's the most common cause of a snapped ACL, whether it's on a WSer, a basketball court, a ski, etc.
5. Wear rib armor and a helmet so landing flat on my back from any altitude is fun, rather than painful or even injurious. That way I can just enjoy the air time without worrying about the landing.
6. I don't wear booties often, and sure as heck not on big days when control is a problem. |
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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dllee
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5329
Location: East Bay
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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"were it to happen again"..... just dump the rig, hopefully not hooked in.. BUT
Like a car accident, or falling off your motorcycle, PREVENTION is the cure, not any kind of compensation...
You should NOT drive upwind into the wave, have the wave grab your rails, slow you down, and force you into an upwind landing.
Instead, you pinch upwind into your jump, and as you hit the wave, you bear off exposing both rails evenly to the wave, then as you leave the lip, you point your toes and bend you knees, fully sheeted in, to bear off and land on a plane, so you PREVENT the accident from occuring, not reacting to a mistake you made.
Prevention is the cure, plane out of your jump.
Separately, on high jumps, you mostly lose forward momemtum, so you have to land tail first with lots of drop. Land those tail first, sheeting in to slow the decent, and then adjusting sheeting angle as you hit the water tail first, to sink the tail, but the feet never leave the straps. Then you waterstart and sail off, obviously not from a plane.
The above can be dangerous, as both CrisChang and Bill Reidel have cracked vertebrae from landings from 12' high or higher. To be safe on thoise really high jumps, either forward or backloop, or just bail before hitting the water.
Nobody ever said junps were supposed to be safe or comfortable. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| manuel wrote: | | Were it to happen again, what do you recommend I do? |
The question, as Zirtaeb says, is not "What do I do next time?" but "How do I prevent it?" You've already done damage, so your goals are rehabilitation and prevention.
You must have an orthopedic surgeon evaluate your knee, determine if possible what specific stress dislocated it, determine whether PT or surgery is required, and take his advice. If he jumps straight to surgery without trying PT first, I'd want to know why and would get a second opinion.
Initial kneecap dislocation usually takes some pretty severe trauma -- with emphasis on applying twisting forces on a planted knee (in our case, such as a foot in a strap) -- but it takes less and less force if repeated. That's NOT a good thing; it causes permanent damage and weakness. If it pinches a nerve, the damage can be severe and long-lasting.
Then, with or without surgery, I'd do the prescribed (by a PT) exercises the rest of my life. We NEED our knees, and ignoring or self-treating them without knowing what damage was done is ... um ... er ... well ... frankly ... just DUMB. English-Spanish dictionary aside, the Spanish term for it is "macho", IMO. 
Then, next time it happens, return to the top of the page, motivated by the increasing odds that repeated kneecap dislocations can become significantly crippling. Real time, sheet in to drop the nose or sheet way out and let both feet slip out upon landing on your back. We can't get much more specific without knowing exactly what forces injured your leg; just landing on your back, alone, won't do it, or I'd be dislocating kneecaps often.
I really regret having to curtail my jumping, but if I snap that right ACL again, it could possibly end my WSing. I’m thus staying below 10 feet on port, staying focused on landing with that knee flexed, and am working on improving my starboard jumps and maneuvering, which don’t threaten the leg I smashed. I also take even more precaution not to sail with one foot unstrapped, which dramatically increases the leverages on our knees when ANY little thing goes wrong. I sure as HELL don’t sail or land with only the front foot in the strap except when entering jibes, and then only as long as it takes to slash from beam to very broad reach. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| zirtaeb wrote: | | Nobody ever said jumps were supposed to be safe or comfortable. |
No, but with only one exception in 30+ years of jumping WSers, I've had only 4 or 5 bone-jarring but harmless (to me) flat landings and only one injury ... that doozy two years ago yesterday due to operator error.
One trick to making them not just comfortable but downright feather-light is to look straight up -- HOOKED IN -- as we approach the peak. The board follows our line of sight straight up and converts more forward speed into altitude, and then as our gaze returns to our landing spot, the board rotates forward into the perfect tall-first landing, so smoothly and quietly that the transition from air to water can be almost imperceptible despite being fully planing. It works whether the jump is 3 or 30 feet high. |
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| zirtaeb wrote: | | [...]You should NOT drive upwind into the wave, have the wave grab your rails, slow you down, and force you into an upwind landing. |
When hitting a late lip, I'm always afraid that it grabs my board and I get thrown forward if I don't square up to it. The more onshore the more problematic that is. While I usually go through the more "side" part of the reef, many times I have to pinch upwind to hit it square.
| zirtaeb wrote: | | [...]To be safe on thoise really high jumps, either forward or backloop, or just bail before hitting the water. |
So in my case I should have tried to look right and at least land onto my side because I'm too far backwards, or bail out of both straps, correct? I just don't want to keep bailing out when landing on my back!
I'm working on controlling horizontal axis rotation while in the air, it's not easy when the board hit the wave near vertical to carry enough momentum and go forward.
| zirtaeb wrote: | | Nobody ever said junps were supposed to be safe or comfortable. |
There's a part of risk which is what makes them fun, I swear some boards are more friendly with tail landings.
| isobars wrote: | | I'd do the prescribed (by a PT) exercises the rest of my life |
I can do squats, I can do leg curls right now with little discomfort.
My knee is a little sore behind and below the kneecap when I touch it. It's also a little swollen nothing bad, nothing blue. Doesn't feel unstable one bit. I'm not quite sure how these exercises are helping if my leg is already strong?
I guess one must start somewhere after the trauma to get things to circulate in the area.
Here is my plan:
- rest (limited walking and standing)
- leg elevation (above heart level)
- compression (light strap to keep inflammation under control)
- ice (ice bag on areas that are warm to the touch or inflamed)
- light exercices
- anti-inflammatories (already stopped since it's not hurting)
Because the repeat chances are reduced with immobilization I won't be doing much more than what's above for a while.
| isobars wrote: | | Then, next time it happens, return to the top of the page, motivated by the increasing odds that repeated kneecap dislocations can become significantly crippling. |
I'm not planning anymore one-legged landings but I have to admit that even the two-legged ones can be pretty harsh sometimes. Nothing close to popping a kneecap I wouldn't think!
| isobars wrote: | | [...]We can't get much more specific without knowing exactly what forces injured your leg; just landing on your back, alone, won't do it, or I'd be dislocating kneecaps often. |
This is why I posted the photos. It looks like the board lands vertically but in the water comes back at me and under my butt. There was a lot of current going on in this area and it could be that I landed right when a wave came in, combining with the downforce of the landing. I can't tell much from the video and because it happened "under water" I didn't see much, just felt the board coming towards me.
| isobars wrote: | | I’m thus staying below 10 feet on port, staying focused on landing with that knee flexed, and am working on improving my starboard jumps and maneuvering, which don’t threaten the leg I smashed. |
Keep in mind you could blow an ACL walking out of your tub. I'd prefer that it happens on the water!
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| manuel wrote: | | Were it to happen again, what do you recommend I do? |
The question, as Zirtaeb says, is not "What do I do next time?" but "How do I prevent it?" You've already done damage, so your goals are rehabilitation and prevention.
You must have an orthopedic surgeon evaluate your knee, determine if possible what specific stress dislocated it, determine whether PT or surgery is required, and take his advice. If he jumps straight to surgery without trying PT first, I'd want to know why and would get a second opinion.
Initial kneecap dislocation usually takes some pretty severe trauma -- with emphasis on applying twisting forces on a planted knee (in our case, such as a foot in a strap) -- but it takes less and less force if repeated. That's NOT a good thing; it causes permanent damage and weakness. If it pinches off the blood flow, the damage can be severe and long-lasting, even including amputation.
Then, with or without surgery, I'd do the prescribed (by a PT) exercises the rest of my life. We NEED our knees, and ignoring or self-treating them without knowing what damage was done is ... um ... er ... well ... frankly ... just DUMB. English-Spanish dictionary aside, the Spanish term for it is "macho", IMO.
Then, next time it happens, return to the top of the page, motivated by the increasing odds that repeated kneecap dislocations can become significantly crippling.
I really regret having to curtail my jumping, but if I snap that right ACL again, it could possibly end my WSing. I’m thus staying below 10 feet on port, staying focused on landing with that knee flexed, and am working on improving my starboard jumps and maneuvering, which don’t threaten the leg I smashed. I also take even more precaution not to sail with one foot unstrapped, which dramatically increases the leverages on our knees when ANY little thing goes wrong. I sure as HELL don’t sail or land with only the front foot in the strap except when entering jibes, and then only as long as it takes to slash from beam to very broad reach.
I would never self-diagnose and self-prescribe treatment for a serious joint injury like yours; there's too much at stake in the long haul. Once they see how diligent, knowledgeable, and motivated I am, my PTs turn me loose to perform much of my rehab at home and in the gym, but only with frequent checkups and precise exercise prescriptions at various stages of recovery. i.e., I'm their puppet even if they're clear across town much of the time. We can do a lot of things wrong without their close supervision. My PT didn’t turn me loose altogether until almost a full year after my ACL rebuild, and only then because he trusted me. And, no, it wasn’t to make his car payments; Medicare pays providers peanuts and he went out of his way to minimize his billables.
Just some of my concerns about your self-treatment are:
• ice and anti-imflammatories have VERY specific application guidelines, because either can virtually shut down healing for many months with even brief use. We can pay a serious penalty using them for pain control rather than pathological damage control. "Ice it, give me anti-imflammatory and pain-killer injections, and put me back in there, Coach" is for winning the Superbowl at any cost, not for recreation or mid-season games.
• The wrong exercises, or the right exercises done improperly or too soon, can easily do more harm than good in recovery, rehab, and long term stages.
• Compression straps are bandaids to reduce pain. Last I read, they provide little if any healing.
• Sure, your patella tracks fine -- maybe! -- now that it's back in its groove, but only your orthopod or PT can assess that accurately. There are also very explicit exercises for the patella to minimize further damage. It functions much like a pulley, which works pretty well as long as the rope stays in the sheaves but goes SERIOUSLY awry when the rope jumps the track as yours did or the bearings fail.
• Similarly, there are very explicit exercises, ranges of motion, levels of effort, feedback symptoms, and prohibitions during joint rehab. Just "doing squats and curls" is like just "pouring an unknown liquid on a fire". We need to know what we're doing lest we exacerbate the problem.
The forces on one ankle and knee with only one foot in its strap are MANY times the forces when both feet are strapped in, because that two-legs-and-a-pelvis triangle is a powerful structure and stance. One foot out + external forces from the board and/or our body = 10 (20? 50?) times more force in the lone strapped-in ankle/knee. That wave probably torqued your knee quite severely, and our knees are not designed to handle torque/twisting. They're hinges, not ball and socket joints.
One more reason to prevent knee injuries is that injuries inside the synovial capsule (the tough sack full of lubricant that surrounds the heart of the joint behind the patella), particularly torn ligaments, dramatically and forever change the chemistry of the joint, almost certainly leading to early, crippling arthritis. That's just one more reason I keep both feet in or both feet out of the straps, not to mention strapping in BFF in challenging conditions. I want my WSing ended by things I CAN'T control, not by things I could have prevented with a little effort and minimal concessions to my safety.
Immobilization is bad for joints. My highly regarded sports medicine/college football team surgeon and my equally qualified PT demanded three months of grueling PT -- 6-8 hours every day -- before he would even CONSIDER repairing my ACL. I THINK a ruptured ACL is a bigger threat than a dislocated patella, but I don’t know by how much. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| manuel wrote: | | So in my case I should have tried to look right and at least land onto my side because I'm too far backwards, or bail out of both straps, correct? I just don't want to keep bailing out when landing on my back! |
How loose are your straps? I almost never come out of mine accidentally, yet they usually slip free when I wish to exit them. Usually when I land on my back even from well over 10 feet up, my feet stay in their straps, I waterstart, and I sail away with minimal delay. It's just a momentary loss of the plane.
Even if we knew exactly what went wrong this time for you, the next time some variable will be slightly different (thus my "every wave is different" comment). Thus it makes more sense to me to focus on the broader guidelines such as -- but not limited to -- the ones I suggested above. If we had different, specific exit and recovery tactics for each possibility, we'd have to memorize a huge notebook of them AND act on it instantly. Those are impractical, so most of us have to learn by TOW.
IMO, a problematic knee demands extra precautions. I'm ESPECIALLY careful not to let that leg spend more than 2-3 seconds in its front strap solo (e.g., in jibing), and even then I pre-loosen that foot before pulling the other foot from its back strap to jibe. If my "good foot" ever slips out except during a jibe, I either reinsert it immediately or slow down and get the "bad foot" out so it's protected; anything to moderate my chances of destroying that knee again. An exception is when my "good" foot/leg slips out of the front strap when my "bad" foot/leg stays in its back strap, it doesn't impact my stability, control, or risk, so I have plenty of control and time to find that vacant front strap at speed because my strapped-in back foot prevents catapults and provides full steerage and control. A front foot in its strap solo does neither by itself. |
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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First, I appreciate you take the time to hear my concerns.
| isobars wrote: | | I would never self-diagnose and self-prescribe treatment for a serious joint injury like yours; there's too much at stake in the long haul. |
I agree. The only thing is how valuable will the information be if I can still do what I want to do today? Meaning if it's not bothering me or hurting me.
When I first hurt my knee, the kneecap moved to the side then as well except that it came back on its own. The surgeon said that when it's blown like that they often do. I guess this one could be classified as a repeat. I did notice that the sideplay of the kneecap was much looser on the hurt knee before this accident, it would explain part of the problem.
So really, the decision is mine, do I want to be operated on to strengthen the area or do I wait until I blow it again?
| isobars wrote: | | • ice and anti-imflammatories have VERY specific application guidelines, because either can virtually shut down healing for many months with even brief use. |
Well the reason for the meds is that I was expecting lots of pain that first night, never happened! No throbbing with leg down, nothing. Just sore to the touch on the sides of the kneecap.
| isobars wrote: | | • The wrong exercises, or the right exercises done improperly or too soon, can easily do more harm than good in recovery, rehab, and long term stages. |
I'm pretty familiar with them since I already went through intense therapy for months on the first blow.
| isobars wrote: | | • Compression straps are bandaids to reduce pain. Last I read, they provide little if any healing. |
For pain nothing for sure but they help circulate the fluid and accelerate the healing to some degree.
| isobars wrote: | | Immobilization is bad for joints. |
There is some debate around the best model of knee immobilizers. The effects were compared in patients treated with in a posterior splint, cylinder cast, or patellar bandage/brace [13]. Results showed that the posterior splint group had the lowest proportion of knee joint restriction and lowest frequency of redislocation per follow-up year. In a study using MRI to examine the effect of bracing on patella alignment and patellofemoral joint contact area in skeletally mature women with patellofemoral pain, the On-Track brace and the Patellar Tracking Orthosis (PTO) were shown to increase total patellofemoral joint contact area in comparison to the no-brace control group.
My approach is keep my knee fairly unstressed especially the first week or two (depending on what it tells me) for maximum healing and not "loose" healing.
| isobars wrote: | | I THINK a ruptured ACL is a bigger threat than a dislocated patella, but I don’t know by how much. |
Yes definitely.
| isobars wrote: |
How loose are your straps? I almost never come out of mine accidentally |
My front one might be a touch too loose. From the video the front foot got out the moment the tail hit the water, because the board was vertical and I was horizontal the foot slid off. I remember making a conscious effort to control the board with my rear foot as opposed to let go, I just wasn't expecting this much force especially while my weight wasn't over the board.
| isobars wrote: | | Even if we knew exactly what went wrong this time for you, the next time some variable will be slightly different |
I understand, the main problem was that I had no wind in the sail meaning I couldn't hold my self up like we do normally when landing downwind.
| isobars wrote: | | A front foot in its strap solo does neither by itself. |
I don't plan on slowing down one bit, I plan on learning all loops and jump higher so there'll be many times my feet will fly off for sure.
Watching speed loop videos it can happen that the front foot, while pulling the nose up and getting launched, comes right off then the landing happens on the back but downwind meaning we can use the boom to limit the weight on the board itself.
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