8.5 sail compared to 7.5 for light wind planing

[brynkaufman2]

I have my planing in the foot straps down to 11.5 mph with my Ezzy Freeride 7.5 sail. I am considering getting an Ezzy Cheetah 8.5 for days when it is blowing 8 to 11 mph.

How much difference will a larger sail make in that light wind? If I could get into the foot straps at 9 mph that would be awesome, but if I just glide slightly faster with the larger sail it is probably not needed.

My board is the Exocet WindSUP 10' and my weight is 160 lbs.

Another option I was considering was a foil board like the AFS-1 for these light wind days, so I don't have to go with such a large sail. It is just a lot more money for a foil board than an 8.5 sail, and I am not sure I will like the foil board either.

[LeeD]

I'm close to your size, had light wind slalom of140 liters, 122 liters, and Formula.
Most would say a meter is good for only a bit more than 1mph earlier planning, given the same board and fin.
8.5 is much harder to pump efficiently, and most 7.5's can be set with looser outhaul and even an inch less downhaul to equal the early planning of one meter bigger sails, yet still weigh like a 7.5 for early planning thru vigorous pumping, ooching, and heading off on a windswell.
Also, sometimes 8.5 requires a longer boom and mast.
Of course, once the winds hit 18, you need to down and out your 7.5 to spec.
Some would say a better jump from 7.5 would be to a 9 meter sail, but that usually violates mast and boom parameters.

[brynkaufman2]

Regarding the down haul I left an extra inch today and I thought I felt more pull in sail, especially from the top part, but it was still just too little to get me going.

A couple times I started to speed up with a pump or two when a gust came through, but than in the lull I slowed down before getting into the straps.

Once the wind hits even 12 mph average I am good on the 7.5, at 18 mph I am on a 6.5 Cheetah.

I have use the big boom for my 7.5 and I happen to have a 490 mast from running an 8.3 many years ago.

Based on your comments it sounds like the 8.5 is not going to get me going any faster than my 7.5 with the extra inch of space in the down haul and a few pumps.

The Ezzy goes from 8.5 to 9.5 and I am just not sure if a 9.5 is something I can up haul and handle. Boom and mast would still work though for the 9.5.

One other issue, the board is rated to go up to a 8.0 sail. Not sure how they do those ratings, but I do notice the nose of the board diving under water sometimes when going slow with my 7.5, I wonder if I use a 9.5 on that board if I am going to have a problem nose diving more with the larger sail.

Should I change to a different board too in sub 11 mph winds?

[joethewindsufa]

i use the james douglass windsurf calculator as a point of reference ...
http://jimbodouglass.blogspot.ca/2010/11/updated-windsurf-calculator-online.html
for 160 pound sailor - 7.5 should plane in about 14.9 or 15 mph
an 8.5 should plane in about 13.2 or about 13 mph
that is a delta of about 2 mph obviously
is it worth the investment ??
should bryn kaufman #2 invest in sail, maybe mast, boom and even board ?
personally i would say not for the following reasons
under 11 mph the winds here are very inconsistent
it will probably be on n off planing
under that wind speed i use a longboard that was purhased for about $200
it glides well in light wind and can plane - especially with your weight
on the other hand ....
if you can borrow someone's stuff - board and/or sail just to try in light wind
you may see whether it is worth the investment
some places loan or rent equipment ...
whatever you choose, let us know if it works out or not ...
what is the ROI = return on investment
even if it works out and you use it once a year - is it worth it ??

[Sailboarder]

I think the gap from 7.5 to 8.5 is small, especially since you'd gain 2mph.

I'm heavier than you are at 210, but I have a Freeride 7.5 and jump to a Lion 9.5. I am happy with that gap, and with the Lion too! So if you make a move, I'd suggest a 9.0 or a 9.5.

Look at the published weight, you will see there is not much of a difference. So uphauling is a bit heavier, but not a deal breaker. The perceived weight matters more. Large sails magnify tuning errors and it's harder to manhandle the sail if you make mistakes or poor adjustments. Some people seem to hate tuning, and will never touch their harness lines, per example. They will not be happy with a large sail. Are you like that?

As you pointed out, the limit is imposed by your board. The published limit is for the average rider. Since you are a bit lighter, the limit could be 0.5 more. Increasing the fin size helps too and you should also put your footstraps in the rear position. It will prevent the nose from riding too low. I find quite possible that a 9.0 or 9.5 will be balanced on your board with proper tuning.

I suggest you research thoroughly the issue before giving up. Asking Exocet or Jingebritsen could be another way to get first hand advice for your board. Hopefully too, you will find a way to borrow or rent a large sail before buying one.

[gvogelsang]

There is one more option.

When it is time to replace your Ezzy Freeride 7.5, consider the Ezzy Zephyr, which is the same size, but a longer boom. It will have more low end grunt, and should get you planing faster.

But, of course, not as fast as an 8.5 or 9.0.

I am 210 lbs, and I go from a Zephyr to an old Neil Pryde V8 8.5, which can be rigged very full and has a great low end. But the cambers are a hassle.

I am probably going to go to a 9.0 Retro, although the new Lion 3 in a 9.5 could be an option.

[cgoudie1]

You're going to get aboout 1.5MPH lower planing threshold with an 8.5.
Most here feel that's not enough for what you'd spend, but I have
a huge gear planing set-up, and often, 1.5MPH lower is just the right thing!

How bad do you want it, and is your average closer to 8 (get a long board
and forget about planing) or 11 (plane with a 9.0 and laugh at people
on the beach)?

-Craig

[U2U2U2]

Same weight as OP

SEVERAL SOURCES a few years back, suggested that A 8.5 would improve early planing, so a 8.5 Lion and new 490 Ezzy mast. Quite the dollar outlay.
I used this for pretty much a month solid on a Formula Starboard and Tabou Rocket 135.

I sold both and continue on Cheetah 7.5 largest sail.

I found very little if any improvement using the 8.5 over the 7.5.
The 490 mast is heavier likewise the Cammed Lion, FWIW , I DONT THINK a 8.5 Cheetah would produce any different results.

What was the most negative issue was the hike from the water to derig
It felt soooo heavy, being tired doesn't help.

If you don't have carbon this and that, perhaps a better fin, an upgrade would help and MAYBE keep expense down.

[brynkaufman2]

Thanks everyone. It seems the 8.5 won't make a big difference, thanks for saving me some money and frustration.

If I do this I should go with the 9.5, but as U2U2U2 mentions, the hike to the water might offset some of the benefit. Although I was thinking about that hike and at a certain point we do get a breeze, and I was thinking perhaps the extra sail area will catch the wind more and offset the feeling of carrying a larger size.

Another concern I had with a 9.5 is what happens if the wind decides to kick it up a notch by surprise. I don't want to feel easily over powered.

One other thing I thought about is once the water clears up (we have had too much rain causing a lot of brown water) I can go back to where the waves are. I found with some waves you can have a lot of fun without planing as long as the wind is good enough to get you on the wave.

[DanWeiss]

With respect to leaving "an extra inch" of DH, which I assume means you down hauled about one inch less than your previous setting, be aware that measuring one inch in the sail's actual travel down the mast is a huge amount if already in the tuning zone.

The Ezzy Cheetah has moderate luff curve, defined as the amount the mast must bend to impart the shape the designer intended. Compare that to a Kona One sail which fairly light luff curve. Its limited luff curve is, in part, one reason we tune the sail so much with outhaul. Yet the Kona One sails are sensitive to DH adjustment. One inch down the mast is the entire adjustment range, from 5 knots to 25 knots.

Your Cheetah is more sensitive to DH tension and it's no surprise you describe your tuning adjustment as giving more pull in the top of the sail. I think you drastically under-downhauled your sail. Sure, the sail will "pull" hard since the leech remains very tight but that results in a pitchy feeling and one that adds excessive back foot pressure. It actually makes it harder to plane -at least comfortably.

I suspect you might benefit from tuning the sail on the proper mast (if you've not done so already) according the specs printed on the sail, using the tuning marks Ezzy prints proud the second mini-batten. Finally, the WindSUP isn't that easy to "lock in" when planing compared to a large freeride board or something higher strung. The Cheetah and WindSUP together don't match ideally, and that may contribute to your feeling that you simply can't get going as desired. Can you try your sail on a more traditional shortboard of at least 130 liters?