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Ezzy Cheetah vs. Sailworks Retro 8.5
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Brian_S



Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 217
Location: SE Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brynkaufman2 wrote:
U2, thanks for your feedback. I do have the largest Chinook Carbon Boom and a 490 partial Carbon Mast not being used, so it would just be the cost of the sail.


If you decide to get a larger sail, the mast compatibility should be an important factor. You didn't say what kind of mast you had.

FWIW, I have both Ezzy's and Retro's and they're both great free-ride sails. If you're comparing apples to apples, you need to also consider the year. One year's Ezzy's compared to another year's Sailworks, is not a fair comparison. There's often a substantial tweak/redesign in certain model years.

I would say that generally, the Retro's have more low-end tug and are more tuneable (get the adjustable outhaul), and the Ezzy's have a more draft-forward feel and a tad lighter feeling (not lighter one the scale, but lower draft).

Another consideration is that the sails are marked with nominal sizes, meaning that a 7.5 might be a 7.4 (or even smaller - I know that sounds crazy, but I confirmed that with one of the sail manufacturers). The 8.5 would be a big sail for a 160 lb person, so it might be that just replacing your 7.5 and refining some planing skills is enough to get you going. I'm saying this because you said you were tired after sailing your 7.5.

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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 383
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian_S, good points, thanks.

slinky, thanks for clarifying that. I believe the Lion now has a narrow luff sleeve so uphauling and waterstarts are easier now, which brings up Brian_S's point of comparing different years.

It seems that like any decision in Windsurfing, we just have to take our best guess if something will work for us or not. Sometimes it works out, many times it does not. Without having the ability to try before we buy, and with all the factors such as different sailing locations, different skill sets, different body sizes, different makes for different years, it is pretty hard to tell exactly what will happen.

Some of the board and sails I bought recently turned out to not be my best option, so I have a couple thousand in equipment sitting around as backup equipment.

Now with all the good points mentioned in this thread, I am not sure if it makes sense to get this new sail. Seems I could end up with something very close to the performance of my current 7.5, and on most days it might not make a difference, or it might even be heavier and harder to rig and my 7.5 would bring me more pleasure.

Another idea is to go with an 8.0, buy the latest year, and hope with the new sail design and the slightly larger sail, I have enough improvement to enjoy it and maybe even sell my 7.5, or add it to my backup collection.

Seems at this point I won't know for sure unless I try something.
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Awalkspoiled



Joined: 21 Sep 2013
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a great thread - full of well-reasoned responses from OP and everyone else!

I picked up a lightly used Ezzy 8.5 Cheetah this year, after many many years as almost exclusively a Sailworks sailor. For me at 230lb the 8.5 is my sail for 20mph although I also use it when thereís NO chance of planing on anything and I donít feel like rigging a 10.0 Titan. I was also carrying a Retro 7.5 (it has since died mostly of old age). I definitely think the Retro has more low-end tug, and is less sensitive to mast choice, in fact I would use either a 460 or a 490 in that sail depending on conditions. The Ezzy is really really well made, with many cool tuning aids, and it can be downhauled with no crank. It is very sensitive to an improper spar, even within the constant-curve spectrum. My Sailworks 490 yielded a gutless, draft back twitchy setup, but an RRD490 works fine. My Retros were all older but werenít made with such solid materials for what thatís worth.

I agree with several people that 7.5-8.5 is a pretty narrow gap, and also that a cammed 8.5 would make a lot of sense and offer less overlap, as being better in lulls and much better upwind. So, Iíd look at the Lion for sure (and I really like the Mauisails Titan too), and Iíd be careful to make sure that I had the right mast.
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gvogelsang



Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brynkaufman2 wrote:
gvogelsang, wow, great idea. You know I did not think about the Lion because the cams turned me off, but I think I should not be so fast to dismiss it. If it provides more low end power and more stability in the gusts, than that is actually what I need, and I have to get over my issue with cams.

Do you have any issues with your Lion and the Cams? If you were me would you get the Lion?

I have noticed a guy with a 7.6 cammed sail going out in winds where I am rigging a 5 something. I asked him how he handles it, and he said the cams really help.

I never had a sail with cams as I heard they were a hassle, but it sounds like the Lion 3 has made cams less of a hassle.

I believe the Zephyr is not available in the size I want as it is hard to get because it was discontinued.


No issues with the cams. They are easy to rig, and pretty easy to handle. The luff sleeve is small, which is also a benefit to the Lion. I would like to try the new one since it is lighter.

but for your weight, I am thinking the Zephyr. It might be the one sail solution to your 7.5 and 8.5 needs. A 7.5 Zephyr and 6.5 Cheetah might be a simple quiver for your lower wind needs.

Me - I am 210 lbs. I use an old Neil Pryde 8.5 V8 as my marginal wind sail. It has 3 cambers and a bigger luff sleeve. It is actually a bit of a hassle to rig; I have gotten it almost all set and a camber will pop off, and I have to re-sleeve it. Pain. But it can be set with a very big draft, and so has a load of low end to get this old man going.

I would love to try an 8.5 Retro or even a 9.0 to replace my V8. I only use the V8 on my old Formula board; in marginal conditions, that combination can be a lot of fun - since I can get planing when a person of my weight ordinarily would not. I have a light Fiberspar or Neil Pryde mast (can't remember which), and a carbon Neil Pryde boom for the V8, so the overall rig is pretty light.

I have used the Zephyr with my Formula board, and that can also be a nice combination. Just not quite as powerful as the old V8.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5070
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awalkspoiled wrote:
What a great thread - full of well-reasoned responses from OP and everyone else!



I agree with several people that 7.5-8.5 is a pretty narrow gap, and also that a cammed 8.5 would make a lot of sense and offer less overlap, as being better in lulls and much better upwind. So, Iíd look at the Lion for sure (and I really like the Mauisails Titan too), and Iíd be careful to make sure that I had the right mast.


What the Cheetah 'may' lack and I think not, in lo end performance It's range being very composed when really wound up , so you don't have to rig down, it's range is brilliant.

So far as well reasoned responses, there is always an alternative view, it would of course be influential if based on facts, and not a dark opinion.

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gvogelsang



Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,

I sent you a PM - happy to send my Zephyr to you for a demo. I certainly won't be using it until next summer.

I realized that I need to find an 8.0 or 8.5 that I can use on my Firemove 122 (when not using it on my formula board). That means ditch the Pryde V8 and pick up a Retro or Lion.
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pete1111



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 193
Location: The Dude

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Retro 8.5 for sale, it's a 2013
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gvogelsang



Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 433

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pete1111 wrote:
I have a Retro 8.5 for sale, it's a 2013


Just curious, what are you going to replace it with?
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pete1111



Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 193
Location: The Dude

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gvogelsang wrote:
pete1111 wrote:
I have a Retro 8.5 for sale, it's a 2013


Just curious, what are you going to replace it with?


I have a 7.5 retro 7.8 severn overdrive 3cam and some older Gun race sails.
Looking to get a 10.0 hot sails speed freak with a single cam.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2777

PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay with what you have. At 160 lbs you are not going to gain enough by going from a 7.5 to an 8.5 to offset the added hassle of the weight gain, especially in waves. The only real gains you will get with the 8.5 are on long upwind or downwind reaches on what I like to call a Forest Gump. The 8.5 would make it easier for you to get back upwind after playing in waves going downwind, but the upwind gain would be offset by more hassles playing in the waves.

Cams or no cams? For the wind you are talking about definitely no cams. Cams are best when lit up, not barely powered. Sail rotation is a problem with cams when sailing barely powered. Having to push, kick or knee your sail to rotate along with the increased probability of breaking batten tips are all reasons for not using cam sails on the lighter side of their sail range.

Cheetah or Retro? Canít help you there. I sailed both and choose neither.

Coachg
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