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brynkaufman2
Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 383
Location: Kailua Oahu
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 Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone.
I think I will take coachg's advice and will stick with what I have and not go bigger for now. If I do get a new sail, perhaps I will get an 8.0, so not too much bigger, but maybe a little extra pull.
I noticed a couple of the 8.5 sailors are in the 210 to 220 lbs. range, so it makes sense for them to use the larger sail, but at 160 lbs. I think coachg is right, and it won't offset the hassle.
Sounds like I would stay away from the CAMS too because this would be my low wind sail should I get an 8 eventually.
Maybe the new 8.0 sails are not much heavier than the older 7.5 that I have, so won't feel too much bigger. |
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gvogelsang
Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Just wanted to add one thing about the Lion. I think that you can sail it with one cam, or maybe even no cams. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| brynkaufman2 wrote: | | Maybe the new 8.0 sails are not much heavier than the older 7.5 that I have, so won't feel too much bigger. |
Scale weight is of little importance, because the board's flotation holds the sail up. Your key word tells the tale: "feel". From that point on, dynamics such as load line, COE location and stability, twist, rotation, power, drag, and many more factors take over to comprise how heavy a sail feels. I can add what feels like 10 pounds to a sail's perceived weight just by downhauling it too little in search of earlier planing power. Heck, a sail's perceived weight increases very significantly in just seconds every time it gets really overpowered in one big gust or remains a handful for several reaches. My first inclination that I really need to rig down is usually a consistent sensation of sail heaviness in most of the jibes. |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3551
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | Scale weight is of little importance, because the board's flotation holds the sail up. |
Not in the context of this discussion. In the situation he describes there will be plenty of moments where he will have to hold up or pick up the sail. In that situation the scale weight is of major importance.
Coachg |
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U2U2U2
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5467
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | | isobars wrote: | | Scale weight is of little importance, because the board's flotation holds the sail up. |
Not in the context of this discussion. In the situation he describes there will be plenty of moments where he will have to hold up or pick up the sail. In that situation the scale weight is of major importance.
Coachg |
The extra weight of the components , which obvious includes the sail was the negative aspect of a 8.5 VS 7.5. Caring the rig FROM the beach after being semi worn out was telling. Again on the water the improvement was not worth it, trying to water start a cammed 8.5 was painful.
The 2016 cheetah is redesigned, the small sizes have 6 battens, 7.0 and down.
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | | In the situation he describes there will be plenty of moments where he will have to hold up or pick up the sail. In that situation the scale weight is of major importance. |
When uphauling, the biggest apparent weight difference among sails of the same size is due to water in and/or on a sail, compounded by mast and boom weight and distribution.
As long as the rig is anywhere near upright -- surely in any ordinary sailing position -- the majority of its static weight rests on the mastfoot.
Under sail it lifts both itself and the driver due to aerodynamic forces and its pitching/lifting moment about its fulcrum/mastfoot.
If you're talking about picking it up on land, there are many solutions to a pound or two of weight, including making two trips, dragging it, spending more time in the gym, or taking advantage of the wind to support it (I don't even use my hands to carry my unattached sails up to 6.2 meters; I stick my lee forearm through the boom and let the wind lift the sail, leaving both hands free as I stroll across the park. It works adequately on the 7.5 Retro I used to have.)
We used to weigh test sails to see what most affected perceived weight. Some findings:
Ezzys were not comparatively heavy, despite rumors of their beefy materials. (They DID, however, feel heavy under sail some years.)
The Multisail, with all its zippers and durable materials, felt very light under sail due to superior aerodynamics.
Overall we found little to no correlation between scale weight and perceived weight of any two sails of the same size ... maybe with the exception of a smaller person carrying a rig across the lawn in zero wind.
Fat luff sleeves -- not even counting double luff sleeves -- were sometimes literally impossible to waterstart (e.g., Gaastra F-1) and very difficult to rope start.
Am I wrong? Have I overlooked something?
Last edited by isobars on Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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gvogelsang
Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | Stay with what you have. At 160 lbs you are not going to gain enough by going from a 7.5 to an 8.5 to offset the added hassle of the weight gain, especially in waves. The only real gains you will get with the 8.5 are on long upwind or downwind reaches on what I like to call a Forest Gump. The 8.5 would make it easier for you to get back upwind after playing in waves going downwind, but the upwind gain would be offset by more hassles playing in the waves.
Cams or no cams? For the wind you are talking about definitely no cams. Cams are best when lit up, not barely powered. Sail rotation is a problem with cams when sailing barely powered. Having to push, kick or knee your sail to rotate along with the increased probability of breaking batten tips are all reasons for not using cam sails on the lighter side of their sail range.
Cheetah or Retro? Cant help you there. I sailed both and choose neither.
Coachg |
I have to disagree with your assessment of cams when barely powered. I am not talking about a full race sail, with its very firm set draft. But from my experience, a sail with two cams can maintain a nice draft, which can help a good bit on the low end when trying to ouch a board up onto a plane.
I think that cams help both on the low end and the high end - they extend the range of a sail. The trade off is on maneuverability. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| gvogelsang wrote: | | I think that cams help ... on the high end - they extend the range of a sail. The trade off is on maneuverability. |
That's been my experience, too. (I don't know about the low end; I'll leave that up to the aerodynamicists.) |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3551
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: |
1. When uphauling, the biggest apparent weight difference among sails of the same size is due to water in and/or on a sail, compounded by mast and boom weight and distribution. |
It was my understanding that we were talking about different sail sizes.
| isobars wrote: |
2. As long as the rig is anywhere near upright -- surely in any ordinary sailing position -- the majority of its static weight rests on the mastfoot. |
So very true. But he is sailing in surf with marginal wind so there is little chance that the sail will always be in an upright, balanced position.
| isobars wrote: |
3. I don't even use my hands to carry my unattached sails up to 6.2 meters; I stick my lee forearm through the boom and let the wind lift the sail |
Good point and neither do I. But what if your sail doesn't float itself? Do you rig a bigger sail? If you rig a bigger sail at what point do you quit? For you apparently a 6.2. He is at a point where the wind won't float a 7.5. Do you really think he should get an 8.5?
| isobars wrote: |
4. Have I overlooked something? |
Only 1, 2 & 3
gvogelsang,
We both agree & disagree at the same time. I said barely powered in surf, meaning maneuverability required. The extra boost you might gain in power is going to be offset by constantly handling a cam sail in light wind. Without enough wind power to aid in the cam rotation even a single cam will be a hassle, not to mention water starting or uphauling hassles.
Making long reaches however (what I call a Forest Gump) is a total different story in light wind. Then I'd choose a cam sail.
Coachg |
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gvogelsang
Joined: 09 Nov 1988
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| coachg wrote: | | isobars wrote: |
4. Have I overlooked something? |
Only 1, 2 & 3
gvogelsang,
We both agree & disagree at the same time. I said barely powered in surf, meaning maneuverability required. The extra boost you might gain in power is going to be offset by constantly handling a cam sail in light wind. Without enough wind power to aid in the cam rotation even a single cam will be a hassle, not to mention water starting or uphauling hassles.
Making long reaches however (what I call a Forest Gump) is a total different story in light wind. Then I'd choose a cam sail.
Coachg |
Gotcha!
So, for long reaches in marginal conditions, which would be better? Lion or Retro?
I ask because an earlier poster said that he thought that the Retro had more low end grunt than the Cheetah. |
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