4 batten sails vs. power wave sails -- early planing

[mthompson156]

Anyone have any thoughts on how early 4 batten wave sails plane vs. a power wave sail? I currently have a 4.3 Hot Sails Quad, which is awesome, and a 5.0 Aerotech Phantom. The Phantom I use in all sorts of light-wind bay situations on different boards...but it kinda blows when on a wave compared to the Quad. Just feels too powerful really.

If I got a 5.0 Quad to replace it, do you think it would still plane as early as the Phantom? I know it wont be as fast or locked-in, but I don't care about that. I guess I don't fully understand if the "power" of a sail necessarily equates to early planing or just the feel and speed.

[manuel]

I have a 2013 Goya eclipse (power wave 5-batten) in 5.0 and a 2014 Goya banzai (4-batten) in 5.0 too. The banzai feels more direct and can move my board (quad) much farther when not planing. It feels like with the eclipse I could move 3 yards downwind, while I can move 10 with the banzai.

But overall the main difference is on a wave and maneuvering around, the banzai feels lighter with greater tack success rate, more radical wave riding, more neutral, easier to light wind waterstart for example. Yet I thought the banzai was more stable than the eclipse (odd?) never had to move harness lines.
The eclipse went away in 2016, but what happens to 5.3's+ sails?

Anyway, depends on weight, program (side-on, bump and jump), type of sailing, what you look for in a sail and manufacturer!

From my research it seems that the KS3 is actually more fun than the QU4D!

EDIT: In terms of early planing, I think a four-batten sail will provide an earlier and stronger pull than a five-batten one which would have a more progressive power delivery at the expense of top end speed and stability. So overall, a four-batten sail is more suited to lower end wind use.

EDIT2: I also own a Gaastra IQ in 4.5 and while it's got really good low end it's still not quite enough to drag my 68kgs on a plane in 15-20 knots. On the Banzai 5.0 I can plane quite often in 15-20, with the Eclipse a bit less.

[mthompson156]

Appreciate the input, pretty much in line with what I was thinking, but good to hear from someone else that has tested both more directly. Thanks.

[jingebritsen]

i have helped give feed back on the design of the phantoms. are you trimming them, and using the correct mast? i sail primarily the 6.2, 6.8, and 7.5 in waves. they "turn off" as well as any other wave sail. yet, i fail to understand this west coast obsession to "turn off" a sail. isn't that a matter of technique and tuning with any RAF?

over the years, seen some fairly poor match ups of sails and masts. i know finances sometimes over rule getting stuff perfect, but when i can get people to trim their sails properly on the right mast, a lot of the qualitative comments disappear.

[mthompson156]

Well keep in mind I am not saying I dislike the Phantom itself -- but it is a totally different feel from the Quad, not just on the wave itself but also in things like light-wind jibes. I have had the Phantom for a year now and always liked it, but the Quad is newer for me and it has a pretty addictive feel to it. I had three straight days on the Quad, then on day four was on the Phantom, and for the first time I wasn't really liking it as much as I used to.

I have a 6.8 Phantom as well and love it, I get huge use out of it. I go from the 5.0 to 6.8 with nothing in between without any issues. The sails definitely have massive range.

I have Ezzy masts, so perhaps not perfect but I believe pretty similar in curve to the Aerotech/Epic masts.

I noticed the new Phantoms are only 5 battens instead of 6 in the smaller sizes now. That was another thing that got me thinking about switching things up.

EDIT: it's not so much about "turning off" as just the overall handling feel. The Quad feels like nothing is there.

[manuel]

You're using hot sails with EZZY masts? They rig well? I think I'd love KS3's but need to use my EZZY masts so I've been sticking with Goya sails which have a close bend.

[jingebritsen]

ezzy masts take away perfpormance from aerotech, np, gun, loft, and lots of others. they may be cheap, but one gets to live with that on every run.

[mthompson156]

Do you guys find this chart accurate for masts?:

http://www.unifiber.net/2015/mast-selector

Goya and Hot Sails are the same according to that, and not too far from Ezzy. I'm happy with my 4.3 Quad on the Ezzy mast. The 5.0 could be worse since its going to require nearly 30cm of extension, so that is something to consider.

Phantom 6.8 on ezzy 430 I am also really happy with. I totally hear you, it would likely be better with the exact mast, but since I'm happy with the sail money is being spent elsewhere first.

[manuel]

Yeah man, that's the best thing we have.
Such a pain in the butt really, since we can't always change both masts and sails...

I've used a tip extension of >10cm to my Ezzy mast to make it a bit more flextop (400cm to 410+), it's worked quite well I think. The opposite is true to make a mast a bit more hardtop, we need to use more base extension and shove more meat in the sail (a vario top helps here too).

All this associated with fine tuning (knowing what to look for and what to "listen to" on the water) can make things work. Even with the designed mast any gear needs to be tuned.

I've used a 430 Ezzy mast on a Neilpryde Alpha 5.4 and it worked wonderfully, even better than the Neilpryde X9 mast itself! So much for the theory, eh?

To come back to the subject a little, I did find that both my four-batten sails fill in and provide a surge of acceleration unlike the 5-batten models which have a more "stiff" foil. So what is true for acceleration is true for depowering as well where the sails will "deflate" a bit and become more neutral. One thing though which is pretty nice is that both the IQ and the Banzai keep some pressure (back hand?) to help cruise through lulls and not be so on-off when gusty. Apparently the KS3 isn't as good there from tests but others have experienced not such issues.

Oh and the pull and sail position is different too, when I first rode the Banzai I thought that it was pulling up on the mast base much more than the Eclipse. It helped get me into a more upright stance less fin dependent?

Weight has a lot to do with it and frontside wave riding percentage versus time spent heading upwind or bump & jumping (yuck!) play a big role too.

[jam-1]

You go from 4.3 to 5.0? Pretty awesome that you can get away with that big of a jump!

Some other factors at play:
1. Your comparison of 4 batten sails versus a 5 batten "power wave" is based upon two sail brands. There are other 3 and 4 batten brands out there that will behave differently than your current one.

2. I'm hearing that you like the feel of the 4 batten wave (I like them too). Have you thought about going to a bigger size, say a 5.3? A lot of guys will have a 5.0, a 5.3, and maybe even a 5.6 for the lighter days.

3. Board and fins will also play a factor. Some guys will go to a larger board for lighter days (maybe use larger wave board with marginal 5.0 day, then switch down to smaller board if wind picks up). Fins are more of a hassle to change out, and potentially somewhat pricey if you've got a multifin board. But clearly size and type of fin will make a difference too.

All good stuff--fun to experiment!

James