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Rights of way
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5467
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmf wrote:
Should smould....1st rule...don't hit anybody. You did. Bad.

Keith


This is the ultra rule. Can't say enough.

Kiter if followed this .. would have avoided you.. Or if he figured out your intentions..could maybe have..I mean who the hell wants to run into anything..

Two really important things I want to point out

KITER WAS 10--20cm behind you... Probably a typo of sorts..CM..
Your first post here ..is probably seeking support for your activity, which could be questionable.. Because it involved a KITER. Maybe We should support you irregardless ?

Back in the atmosphere .. This is a good report as no one is injured.
Turn this around and become more conscious .

The blame game..ok I was 70% right, yes dead right...

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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1288
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiters don't have a rig blocking their view. Wouldn't it be nice to have an unobstructed view of everything?? If a kiter has a collision, it must not have been paying attention and rode too close to a hazard. Ouch.
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'tacking boat shall keep clear' applies in this case, not the 'overtaking' rule.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A planing sailor coming within a mast length of a nonplaning sailor is asking for trouble. It's a dumb idea.

It may well be that the tacking (helitacking, nonplaning freestyling) sailor is tacking in a poor spot, but regarding right of way, so what? What if I start a tack while nobody is within hundreds of yards of me, and I get hung up mid-maneuver? I'm now required to have perfect sail handling? I see a tort lawyer making the case, but a windsurfer?

There are bad spots to tack in. As per Zirtaeb, don't do that. But if someone initiates a tack well in the clear, anyone planing right at them (within a mast length) is gambling IMHO.

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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "right of way" rules are in place for racing/regattas, but also apply to recreational sailing, to offer some sense of expectations as to how to avoid collisions. When racing, most know and expect certain things to happen, but even when the awareness level is somewhat high, collisions still occur.

Recreational sailing with boards and kites sharing the same space can get hectic.

When approaching/passing a board from behind, the most serious issue is that the board in front may jibe without looking and a T-Bone crash is possible. Back in the 80's I was approaching from behind and was about 20' below the sailor in front. He immediately jibes and a collision occurred, where the jibing sailor sustained a serious gash on his calf from my fin.

Point being, if I can, I will pass to windward, or if not easy to do, will head below and give plenty of clearance to the board in front, just in case he jibes witout looking.

A tacking board, is less common, but can potentially have the same serious consequences, so regardless of "right of way", consider how much space the leading board may need if he decides to tack or jibe, then give plenty of room for the occasional surprise.

If passing a kiter in the same direction, I always try to pass upwind, but sometimes that just doesn't work, so I give enough clearance when passing to leeward so that if his kite drops to water level I won't get caught. Most kiters can keep the kite high enough to avoid snagging windsurfers, but
NOT ALL.

When approaching a kiter or windsurfer head to head, choose your direction early on so there is no last second panic. Early on means at least 100 yards separation. Sometimes, the approaching vessels make the same decision (to head up, or bear off) and you need time to sort things out before passing. The vessel on starboard should have the right of way (hold it's course), but being right and colliding makes no sense.

Few recreational windsurfers or kiters are knowledgable about racing/sailing rules, so to be safe, expect the unexpected.


Last edited by techno900 on Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In 10-15 seconds of the OP's sailing backwinded in an obvious maneuver, that planing kiter covered a hundred yards before passing within inches of the OP. The kiter was clearly either completely out of control or did it deliberately, and IMO is thus 100% at fault. He was being a smart ass at best, maybe even an assailant, and got less than he deserved.

Since when is doing a trick illegal or even unwise in the Gorge when you have a hundred yards of clearance? This ain't the damned Olympics or an IYRA event.

As for overtaken vessels having ROW ... tell that to sailors who pinch up under slower sailors expecting the latter to just jump in the freaking water to let them by. Good luck wid dat.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
Point being, if I can, I will pass to windward, or if not easy to do, will head below and give plenty of clearance to the board in front, just in case he jibes witout looking.


Or jumps or slashes or crashes or takes a swell/wave or drops his kite or simply tries to hit you. Only in a mob or at a shoreline is it genuinely difficult to give others room to play or screw up, which is the main reason I avoid mobs. (Tip: other reasons are that a) my neck is too stiff and my balance too poor to look directly behind me and b) I'm doing any or all the above (except for trying to hit anyone) up to once per second and may not even have time to look for, let alone see, a tailgater.) Bottom line: on a playground, assume everyone else is there to play, not to march in lockstep. This is neither Nazi Germany, a sanctioned event, nor California (don't bother), and maritime law applies to us only AFTER a collision (i.e., it is not against any LAW to crowd another sailor; it's just stupid, obnoxious, risky, etc.)
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konajoe



Joined: 28 Feb 2010
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The right of way rules are a lawyer's dream come true. The rules are written in such a way to minimize collisions.

The overtaking boat has to keep clear because he has a better view of what is going on. The lead boat is likely looking forward and may be unaware of the trailing boat.

Leeward boat has right of way over windward boat, because the windward boat may take the leeward boat's wind. That limits the leeward boat's maneuverability.

Tacking and jibing boats losing right of way, is because the boats around him can't be expected to be mind readers. It's better to ask the tacking or jibing boat to look around first.

BUT, there are instances where sailors use these rules to 'hunt'. And sometimes people get careless, or make bad assumptions about what is about to happen. This is where there's always a gray area.

Can I go out on any given day and hunt down someone jibing. Absolutely. And we all know better than assume someone is not going to fall when we see them jibing ahead of us.

The kiter screwed up. But I think the windsurfer would lose in court.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

konajoe wrote:
The overtaking boat has to keep clear

Leeward boat has right of way

Those conflict when the former and the latter are the same boat.
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mizkins.z



Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to point out that

1. I would not consider HEllictack a trick, it's simple transition.
2. I do not seek any support because incident involved KITER. I do kite myself in low winds and have nothing against other water/wind users.
3. The kiter just sailed away (no shouting or anger, so I guess he was feeling kinda guilty). Anyway I have no idea how this would end up in court if he had hit the boom with his teeth.
4. I've been hellitacking for more than 10 years and have never come close to such situation. So it was a surprise for me. I've never seen anybody else looking behind before flipping the sail from backwinded position. Now the danger is obvious, but I've never thought of that before. Guys keep that in mind. Will never hellitack in crowded area.
5. The kiter have hit the sail AFTER the change of direction (tack). As I said I was sailing on new tack in backwinded position for 10-15 second. Was not planing, not changing direction, sail flip was in control.

6. Everybody be safe. I want to share this danger I've found out after many years of windsurfing Smile
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