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Getting into the Footstraps
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joethewindsufa



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1019
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why not just some simple beginner chatter and videos ??

like this:

http://www.riggeek.com/technique/2011-06-30-1

https://vimeo.com/25891061

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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 9149

PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joethewindsufa, I have to ask, were you finally able to get into the footstraps? That challenge was arguably your biggest goal of the 2016 season. I hope you ultimately went for it, and you were able to overcome your biggest fear in windsurfing.

Last edited by swchandler on Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2623

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
manuel wrote:
As the rear foot controls the board trim, we can easily lift the front foot. How does one control the board trim with the front foot out of the straps and lifting the rear foot up when heading down a wave???

If we lift the front foot, our total weight minus our MFP comes down on our back foot. If the board tail is not moving fast enough to support that, the tail sinks.

Correct, if the foot is in the back foot strap or next to the back strap. However, if the back foot is between the front & rear straps it won't sink the tail when balancing between the mast foot & rear foot at slower speeds.

The faster we are going the farther back we can step so yes, if we are going fast enough we can put the rear foot in first. But, as stated by you, if we are not going fast enough we can't put the rear foot in the strap without sinking the tail. This is the main reason that early planing is achieved by FFF.

Coachg
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jirvin4505kP7g



Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:13 am    Post subject: If I fff how do I prevent catapult with BFS Reply with quote

Been out sailing last few days with this topic very much in mind. JP SLW ezzy 9.5 lion gusty light winds flat water. Practiced both techniques Still getting the catapults doing FFF however very comfortable and safe doing BFF.

I had already been a FFF but after too many catapults getting back foot in second- BFS - got some advice and help and BFF was suggested as a means of control.

I still do both system however Im mainly BFF as I can get the back in well before powered up and its one more job done - given that most of my crashes happen during transitioning moves.

In my heart I want to be FFF as I can see it maybe being an issue with step gybes.

So i can comfortably get rear foot in very early and sail around. The ability to get the nose downwind and power up without catapult makes planing easy when I have the BFF. I feel i am actually pulling up on my backfoot and pushing on the boom to bearaway to accelerate. FF goes in as planing speed approaches and then I can lift both feet and bear away even more - love the acceleration when that happens.

When I FFF its a more passive planing technique - inch my feet out bearing off and sheeting in, boom pressure front foot in. Lift front foot bear off and accelerate. At this stage the BF is against the rear stap just aching to be inserted!! THIS IS WHERE I COME UNDONE - so may times

Im OK in flat water as I can do the wiggle and get my foot in. I try to do the unweight rear foot thing - this tends to make me even more prone to go over the front. I tend to let board accelerate too much before doing the BFS. Watching videos and after being to a guy cribb seminar I see an emphasis on being quick with the BFS after the FFF. All this does so far is speed up the catapult.

So help from the FFF coach's - help me get my BFS before I become entrenched as minority sailer and be a BFF forever sailer. (excuse the touch of irony)

Experience keen beginner/improver -too many boards (i'm having fun)... Sail jpSLW, Mistral 137 slalom, 131 Carve, Bic283, Naish 125, Exocet Sting 124 .. plus old school boards F2 Orbit, Mistral Energiser. The inside rear straps on the old boards are much easier however outside straps is what I use on all my other boards as I found once you are powered up I need my feet on the outside rails.


I have many things I need to improve - Ive been admonished for waterstarting with both feet on the board, having my boom too high, lines too long and too far back. Embarassed Crying or Very sad

So with a foot in both camps Razz Razz
Can any guidence from the FFF camp on how to successfully BFS

cheers Jeff
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1702

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: If I fff how do I prevent catapult with BFS Reply with quote

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
JP SLW ezzy 9.5 lion gusty light winds flat water. Practiced both techniques Still getting the catapults doing FFF however very comfortable and safe doing BFF.


If you're getting catapulted in those conditions, it's highly likely that there's something off with your stance and/or your sail tuning. If you're able to, sail with a good sailor who can watch you and give you feedback, or have someone shoot some video of you sailing (and then post that here) so you can get useful feedback.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
I feel i am actually pulling up on my backfoot and pushing on the boom to bearaway to accelerate. FF goes in as planing speed approaches and then I can lift both feet and bear away even more - love the acceleration when that happens.


You are indeed actually pulling up on your back foot. That's how you're un-digging the tail. When you get your stance sorted out and get comfortable going FFF you will be accelerating sooner and in less wind.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
When I FFF its a more passive planing technique - inch my feet out bearing off and sheeting in, boom pressure front foot in. Lift front foot bear off and accelerate. At this stage the BF is against the rear stap just aching to be inserted!! THIS IS WHERE I COME UNDONE - so may times

Im OK in flat water as I can do the wiggle and get my foot in. I try to do the unweight rear foot thing - this tends to make me even more prone to go over the front. I tend to let board accelerate too much before doing the BFS. Watching videos and after being to a guy cribb seminar I see an emphasis on being quick with the BFS after the FFF. All this does so far is speed up the catapult.


You're exactly right when you say FFF is more passive. It disturbs the board and rig less, which makes it more efficient (and also leads to other skills being developed.)

The good news about your description of your sailing is that you've got a stance and/or rigging issue that is causing so many of the catapults. When you get that sorted out, many good things in addition to not being catapulted will come from it. If you can post some video of you on a beam reach it would be great.
Even a still photo would help. Or a photo of you standing with your board and rig on land, boom in hand, rigged the way you sail it.

Re your rig, how high are you running your boom? Standing on the board with the mast straight up, how much higher than your clavicles is it?

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18709

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
as stated by you, if we are not going fast enough we can't put the rear foot in the strap without sinking the tail.

If I said that (it wasn't in this thread), I misspoke, and I have often said the following: I have zero problem (and gain significant advantages) putting my back foot in its strap at 0 mph even on 65 L boards while maintaining board trim. I've addressed this at LEAST 50 times, probably WAY over a hundred, as "BFF=tailsink" is probably the most common myth in the entire WFF debate.

I can't loop (it doesn't interest me), and many people here can't finesse the back strap without sinking it. That doesn't make either even difficult, let alone impossible.
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jirvin4505kP7g



Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: If I fff how do I prevent catapult with BFS Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
....snip...

If you're getting catapulted in those conditions, it's highly likely that there's something off with your stance and/or your sail tuning. If you're able to, sail with a good sailor who can watch you and give you feedback, or have someone shoot some video of you sailing (and then post that here) so you can get useful feedback.



Thankyou for your reply PP

Ill get some video in the next few days.

My youtube channel has a few older videos of FFF with trouble BFS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhGdYzTwRvY

a little bit of iphone footage im proud of Very Happy Very Happy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMR-BercZPs

you ask about boom height..
I do think this is at root of some problems I have. But have been unable to work out a clear path here.

I tend to set boom onland, off board when rigging to be under my armpit (as per jem hall or guy cribb?) generally ends up at 4 on my ezzy sails.

Once I was asked how does my gear end up with rearward lines and high boom?
Not by accident Embarassed when I go sailings I end up in a cycle of deminishing returns where I keep raising the boom to keep weight of the windward rail while blasting or I end up oversheeted and bearing up into wind. With a high boom I can lift the windward rail and get the board flying.

Only problem is... When I go to get going out of straps and in harness im a bit tippy toe and vulnerable to gusts plus have trouble throwing sail forward enough to bear off... so I then move my lines back a bit (can you see the cycle ive got myself into). It has been suggested I should get planing out of harness. Not doing so well with that - tires this 60 year old very quickly.

Will see if I can get some clew angled video.

I was watching a Jem Hall video on stance and he mentioned front leg straight and back leg bent. 2:50 in....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k6-pH-Kn4E


This challenges me with my setup, i see Im a lot more sideon (can sail hanging like I'm on a trapeze, shoulders open and forward both legs straight) to the board and yesterday when i tried this jem hall stanceI felt I didnt have enough space to get low over the back leg.

Thanks Jeff
edit... 95-100kgs (slow fat winter) 6' tall slow learner - enthusiastic and motivated Smile
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rswabsin



Joined: 14 May 2000
Posts: 366
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff,

Looking at your first video, its hard to say for sure due to the camera angle, but is looks like you harness lines are quite short. At 6' tall, you should be using something like 28" - 30" long lines. This helps get your upper body out over the water more and provides a bit more leverage over the sail power in gusts. From the video, your stance looks very upright and your chest seems very close to the boom. Slightly longer lines may help in reducing the frequency of getting slammed and improve your stance and boom height issues.

Rob
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1702

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: If I fff how do I prevent catapult with BFS Reply with quote

Nice bit of ripping on that iphone footage!

Re boom height, may I suggest for now that you set your boom at clavicle height (with you standing on board and mast straight up, that's just under shoulder high.) When you sort everything out for yourself you may end up with the boom a little higher or lower, but this will make a good "neutral" position and constant, while you work on other things.

From the mast top footage two things appear to me. First is that the sail is not sheeted in fully. Second is your bent back arm...I can't see your front arm because of the water droplet but I'll guess that it's fairly bent as well. Starting with the idea of a relaxed "7" position (straight or nearly straight arms and legs, but not jammed hard straight) I think you should sheet in by pushing out with your front arm, and pulling your front shoulder a little out and back. Your front shoulder should be a little further away from the board than your back shoulder. This should also have the effect of swinging you back and out a few inches while keeping the sail sheeted in. The power that is catapulting you will instead drive the board, through your front foot. You will sail faster, and the gusts will be less likely to pull you forward and up (and over kapow!) It may seem counterintuitive, but sheeting out increases the likelihood that you'll be launched.

Where do you windsurf, Jeff (if you don't mind my asking)?

(When Jem Hall talks about the bent back leg he's discussing clew first sailing, which is out of the foot straps, and an entirely different kettle of fish. Worth reviewing when you're working on exiting planing jibes!)

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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18709

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
JP SLW ezzy 9.5 lion gusty light winds flat water. Practiced both techniques Still getting the catapults doing FFF however very comfortable and safe doing BFF.

I had to Google the SLW to see its strap configuration. WOW! I'm surprised and impressed that BFF would work, let alone feel safe, in back straps that far out.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
had already been a FFF but after too many catapults getting back foot in second- BFS ... I still do both system however Im mainly BFF as I can get the back in well before powered up and its one more job done - given that most of my crashes happen during transitioning moves.
.
Yep. Fishing around with all of our weight forward and the FF pinned to the deck is daunting, especially with so little room between an outboard strap and the slipstream.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
In my heart I want to be FFF as I can see it maybe being an issue with step gybes.

There may be a connection, but I don't see it. Many of my jibes are step jibes or hybrids thereof, and it doesn't seem to interfere with the next phase of getting strapped in. When both feet are out of their straps, we're free to put them wherever they feel right for the moment. The step jibe is advantageous if we've lost enough speed and/or power that we NEED the FF well forward, and that's a GOOD thing as it puts the FF right near where it needs to be as we slip the BF in.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
So i can comfortably get rear foot in very early and sail around. The ability to get the nose downwind and power up without catapult makes planing easy when I have the BFF. I feel i am actually pulling up on my backfoot and pushing on the boom to bearaway to accelerate. FF goes in as planing speed approaches and then I can lift both feet and bear away even more - love the acceleration when that happens.

This guy gets it! That's comforting and advantageous enough on flat water; it's damn near mandatory at high speed on wild terrain. Full speed and a boatload of power on waist-high chop with no connection to the board, especially if not yet in picture-perfect beam reach stance -- common at the exit from a good jibe in very rough water -- is daunting, but once that BF is even touching (for reference), let alone secure and I'm hooked in, I don't much care if the FF is in my ear; I'm back in full control and can wait two (or 60) seconds before putting the FF in.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
When I FFF its a more passive planing technique ..

Absolutely! It's easy and safe on flat water and in steady winds, and obviously achievable (by millions) in nasty wind and terrain, but the control and thus the risks go up in the latter scenario. I don't see how (or why) so many people go FFF in unpredictable gusts and huge chop. They're either so danged good (or so tentative) that they seldom fall, or they haven't yet mastered the BFF. (Maybe they've just never destroyed an ankle.)

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
bear off and accelerateTHIS IS WHERE I COME UNDONE - so may times Im OK in flat water as I can do the wiggle and get my foot in. I try to do the unweight rear foot thing - this tends to make me even more prone to go over the front.

That probably describes most sailors' first 100 catapults. I quickly learned in insanely gusty/shifty/shitty mountain lake winds to sit towards my heels to lower my cg, then to sheet in rather than out, then to get that back foot in a strap. To this day I use those techniques when advantageous, plus hooking in to distribute my weight (that requires advanced skills and confidence if the wind and water are really rough), before I get that back foot in and relax.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
I tend to let board accelerate too much before doing the BFS. Watching videos and after being to a guy cribb seminar I see an emphasis on being quick with the BFS after the FFF. All this does so far is speed up the catapult.

That's operator error. It will improve with TOW.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
So help from the FFF coach's - help me get my BFS before I become entrenched as minority sailer and be a BFF forever sailer.

No one's advising BFF only. Why not learn and use both techniques? Getting stuck in any single mode of strapping in, reversing direction, jumping, slashing, slogging, swimming, point of sail, or any other endeavor limits one's versatility, fun, and performance.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
I found once you are powered up I need my feet on the outside rails.

That will change if and when you start maneuvering more on smaller boards, whether it's on a bumpy lake or on the ocean. It's more a function of objectives and venue than of preference or habit. I don't sail in straight lines or on flat water, so I have no use for outboard straps at home or on road trips.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
I have many things I need to improve

That's why we all stay hooked on the sport.

jirvin4505kP7g wrote:
Ive been admonished for waterstarting with both feet on the board, having my boom too high, lines too long and too far back ...

... and for sailing the wrong brands or sizes of gear, using big or small fins, external vs internal strap adjustors, rigging your booms upside down, putting on your wetsuit before vs after rigging, slogging vs buttsailing out to the windline, launching into dying winds at dusk, monolines vs normal lines, and eating peanut butter vs bananas ... EEEEEVERbuddy says we gotta sail like they do. There ARE a few absolutes (like centering your harness lines VERY near the COE), but ONLY a few. Even waterstarting with both feet in their straps has an application, and doing it with one foot in its strap has several advantages (of course, even expert sailors can't agree which foot that should be.)

Thanks for a topical, rational voice of reason. It's refreshing.
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