Bic Techno 133 and sail size question

[DelmarEdward]

i have been out with my bic 133 several times now, it's sail range is listed as 5.5 to 8.5. last weekend i was out with winds 15 gusting to maybe 25 and a new 5. 0 retro and a 36 cm pointer fin. it was great, able to slog comfortably in the lulls and was very comfortable in the gusts in harness and footstraps. it felt very balanced.

it is a different story with my retro 8.0, i've been out with it twice and it feels to be a terrible set up, i never feel balanced and it is very hard to get the back foot in the strap, and when i do it still never feels balanced and relaxed. i had the mast base in the middle of the track, then moved it forward a little and that had no effect.

i also read in an old review of a bic 118, also rated for 5.5 to 8.5, that it really was only good from 5.5 to 6.5.

any bic 133 riders with the same experience? just need more time on the board? maybe use my retro 7.0 as the largest sail on the board?

[GURGLETROUSERS]

Yes, I use the same board at times, and agree with your findings. It's a very under rated board, and it is by no means slow or awkward to use.

The biggest sail I use on it is a favourite light and flicky 7.0 metre rotational. Bigger just doesn't feel right, as you say. The smallest I use on it is a 6.0 sail, with a smaller than standard fin (as you do) and as long as the water isn't too rough and bouncy, it has a very respectable turn of speed and control. (A nice kind of hovery feel.)

If can work, as you say, with a smaller sail, but by then, the conditions really work a bit against its size, and a step down to say 100 litres becomes much more desirable.

But I'm glad I bought it, a long standing and successful board in the Bic Techno series, because it puts a smile on the face in good conditions!

If you like the 133, you would also really enjoy using the older Bic Techno E 112 litre medium board, if you could ever find an undamaged second hand one anywhere. That is a remarkably good performer, and a board to keep. (I still haul mine out many a time, and it's almost always an enjoyable day, when I do.)

[jingebritsen]

if a large RAF sail feels big on a board that is supposed to match it, my guess is you may not be using the right sail adjustments?

lots that claim a sail feels heavy just need to down haul more. sometimes they aren't using the right mast.

i have used large sails similar to yours, and have a bit of time on retros too. the key is to get the down haul tension right, then mess with tuning for power with boom height and out haul tension.

lastly, a slightly larger fin may help a bit too. although, i use a 32 cm fin IF my 7.5 phantom is lit up. i use a 40 if i am barely powered and need more lift.

[swchandler]

I'm with JohnI in thinking you need a bigger fin using an 8.0. Using too small a fin makes a larger sail feel awkward and powerless. You could easily be using a 46cm fin in light winds.

Also, I'm again with John about having enough downhaul. I have a 7.0 Retro, and I'm of the mind that a higher downhaul setting works best for making the sail more light and slippery. You can always loosen up the outhaul a bit if you need a bit more low end power. Retros are so tunable.

[U2U2U2]

Umm, he doesn't actually say the 36cm is used on the Retro.

If the 36cm is being used, I concours with both above, it's too small, a 36cm for me is 117--105liters.

Since the smaller sail worked ok, we could assume the sailor knows how to rig properly, of the number of things that could be off, these are but 2

[GURGLETROUSERS]

The 133 standard fin is a 43 Select Ride. It is a good fin and I assumed that would be the one he would have used with the larger sail.

I stand by how I feel about the board in that its sweet spot, for me, is with a 7.0 sail decently powered up. Of course it can take an 8.0 sail but it spoils, to some extent, that boards very nice feel. Big doesn't always give a better experience.

[DelmarEdward]

i'd like to clarify a couple of points-

the 36 Phoenix fin was used with the 5.0 only, with the 8.0 i have on a 42 Fury. i have 42, 39, 36 and 33 cm tectonics fins to use with the board. not because i'm that good, retail therapy i guess.

the board is 70 cm wide and the OFO measurement is 45.75, so i assume the fin range is somewhere around 44-46 down to around 32 cm.

my sails are primarily retros, i have an 8.0, 7.0, 6.0, 5.0 and a couple of smaller revos. when i first went out yesterday, the wind was light in the lulls, too light to plane, and planable in the gusts. i purposely rigged the sail with slightly decreased luff tension to underdownhaul. when the wind picked up a bit i increased the downhaul to what would be about the normal retro setting, with the wrinkle up top just passed the cog on the sail, maybe slightly less. for what i would call an idealized tuning of the sail i would have put another cm or two of downhaul on. with these adjustments it still never felt right, even on a slow slog.

with my other board, a 84 cm wide 170 liter GO the bigger retros never felt awkward.

there is the old boardseeker review that mentions that the smaller 118 liter techno also had the same recommended sail range (5.5 to 8.5) but they thought it worked best only to 6.5. my board is only 2 cm wider so maybe it is optimistic to think it's range really goes all the way to 8.5. i don't know, only guessing at this point.

looking back on the rig, i could have had the boom too high, did seem to be fighting it, maybe i'll give the 8.0 rig another go and bring the boom down a bit and see how it feels.

if the largest sail i could use on the board were a 7.0, i wouldn't be disapointed and maybe would take it as an omen to rid myself of the 8.0 rig all together. i like the size of the board and would not get a larger board to use the 8 on if i had to anyway.

also to comment on sail tuneability; i find that the sail really only works well when tuned for the optimum wind medium, or middle setting for the sail and i tend never to like any of my retros when under or over downhauled. don't know about other sails, that just me.

when i improve i have adjustable outhauls to try but at this point in my windsurfing journey i'm still getting comfortable planing in both straps and harness and don't have the concentration to spare to pull on a rope while going fast. maybe later.

thanks for listening and the info.

[swchandler]

DelmarEdward,

I have to admit that I'm not familiar with your Bic 133, but it seems wide enough to handle a bigger fin. I have an old 1998 Mike's Lab Course Slalom that is 9'4" long, 23 3/4" wide and about 120 liters that I used with 3 different race sails over time (7.7, 8.1 and 8.3). Originally, I used the 7.7 with a 46cm Tectonics Spitfire, and everything worked great. However, after getting the 8.1, I was really disappointed with the sail's performance, especially since I was looking for a bit more power. In an attempt to solve the problem, I bought a 50cm Tectonics Mirage. The larger Mirage made everything come alive. Immediately, the sail performed incredibly well, and my range increased in both directions, particularly in the lightest of winds. The Mirage, being a course slalom design, has a pretty powerful outline with a fairly large tip. It was much more stout in that way over the Spitfire.

In the end, everything came down to putting on good sized fin with a stouter design outline. Even though the board is substantially narrower than today's designs, it easily handled the 50cm Mirage, even in fully powered conditions. I have admit though, the ML board has more outboard straps, particularly the front ones. That offers you greater leverage over the fin.

If I were you, I would attempt to borrow a larger fin in the 48-50cm range, and see if it opens the door to more lively performance. There's a good chance that it will.

[gvogelsang]

[DelmarEdward]

i have found a great article by peter hart written for heavier sailors that talks about tuning of the sail. he recommends more downhaul in lighter winds for heavier people as opposed to the advice of less downhaul and a more bagged out sail. that advice is given often in this forum and the boards (uk) windsurfing forum.

will go out today and rig with my normal to higher downhaul tension and also rig the 7.0 retro and see how it goes.

the article is called "big men small problems" on 9-23-16, windsurf magazine, sorry don't know how to do internet connecting stuff.

i know i'm not that heavy at 200-205, but with a 4/3 suit, seat harness, booties, rig, neoprene hat the 133 deck was awash with water so i think i'll follow the advice.

not meaning to dismiss jingebritsens downhaul advice, but at first i did dismiss it, but rethought it later, and now will follow it.

also, i have a 52 fury that i could put on the board, could try that after i get the sail worked out, i am trying to go with smaller fins due to beach issues at low tide.