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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | merriam wrote: | | Doesn't onshore imply wind blowing towards the shore? Offshore blowing away from the shore? Sideshore blowing parallel to the shore? Not sure where you get your "definition" from. |
No, because once you're clear of the shoreline, it is immaterial. It has to do with the relative direction of the wind vs that of the waves, not some coincidental piece of nearby land. Certainly it impacts sailing away from that shoreline, but once clear of that, it's back to the scenario Lee/Zirt described in his opening post above, which Angulo described as I've cited so many times as among the toughest of conditions, where the wind in your sail actually generates the waves/swell you're sailing on, as opposed to ocean waves whose direction is usually determined by larger, distant weather patterns. There are boards and fins labelled "onshore" for this scenario, and they do not refer to where the nearest piece of land happens to be.
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Ridiculous. The word "shore" refers to the shore. Shore never refers to "not the shore". Wherever you are, the shore is where the shore is. Onshore wind is wind blowing towards the shore. Onshore wave sailing is sailing in a wave venue with the wind blowing onshore, that is, towards the shore. Onshore wave gear is wave gear that puts more of a premium on generating power and planing than sideshore wave gear does, because of the wind and water challenges of sailing in onshore wave conditions.
Perhaps you sail onshore wave gear in the Gorge (I would) and because of that think you are onshore wave sailing. You are not.
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Michael
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| bred2shred wrote: | | These are conditions where having a wind SUP can be really beneficial. I've sailed in strong onshore conditions using my SUP when it easily would have been 100L short board weather if it were side shore. You need a board that will stay afloat when you come off plane (and you will) and which gives you the best opportunity for staying upwind. |
How much smaller a sail are you using when you do this (ie you might be on a 5.8 and your 100l, but instead take your SUP out with ?) Or do you manage with the same sail size?
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Michael
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trance_dude
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| bred2shred wrote: | Having solid waterstart skills and popping back up as quickly as possible after a knock down helps immensely. On the flip side, knowing when to bail is also crucial.
sm |
Agreed completely... Fortunately, my waterstart skills are now excellent due to me eating it so many times over the years..  Actually the move I see my friend do which I think helps him the most in this situation is fast-tacking. It enables him to stay so much further upwind than jibing. He can tack an 80 L board with very minimal time spent off a plane.
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PeconicPuffin
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| trance_dude wrote: | | the move I see my friend do which I think helps him the most in this situation is fast-tacking. It enables him to stay so much further upwind than jibing. He can tack an 80 L board with very minimal time spent off a plane. |
Fast tacking makes a big difference. Your friend is very good. On my best days I'm one for four fast tacking my 77L...most of my attempts on a board that small end up as setups for an instant waterstart. On my 93 they're much more dependable, and the extra yards upwind picked up make a big difference.
Tacking is underrated.
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Michael
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bred2shred
Joined: 02 May 2000
Posts: 989
Location: Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: |
How much smaller a sail are you using when you do this (ie you might be on a 5.8 and your 100l, but instead take your SUP out with ?) Or do you manage with the same sail size? |
I would personally always prefer to be in the range of powered to over-powered as opposed to under-powered to powered, so I wouldn't drop the rig size much if at all, just swap out the boards.
sm
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trance_dude
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: | | trance_dude wrote: | | the move I see my friend do which I think helps him the most in this situation is fast-tacking. It enables him to stay so much further upwind than jibing. He can tack an 80 L board with very minimal time spent off a plane. |
Fast tacking makes a big difference. Your friend is very good. On my best days I'm one for four fast tacking my 77L...most of my attempts on a board that small end up as setups for an instant waterstart. On my 93 they're much more dependable, and the extra yards upwind picked up make a big difference.
Tacking is underrated. |
yeah... he used to be pro. I can tack somewhat on my 96L (maybe 40-50%). On my 83L it's more like 10%. Feel like a badass when I hit one though ha...
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DanWeiss
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
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Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: |
No, because once you're clear of the shoreline, it is immaterial. It has to do with the relative direction of the wind vs that of the waves, not some coincidental piece of nearby land. Certainly it impacts sailing away from that shoreline, but once clear of that, it's back to the scenario Lee/Zirt described in his opening post above, which Angulo described as I've cited so many times as among the toughest of conditions, where the wind in your sail actually generates the waves/swell you're sailing on, as opposed to ocean waves whose direction is usually determined by larger, distant weather patterns. There are boards and fins labelled "onshore" for this scenario, and they do not refer to where the nearest piece of land happens to be.
Another way to look at it is on any body of water on which the local wind is generating the swell/waves in the same direction as the wind, but there are many shoreline orientations due to islands, a twisting shoreline, etc. The SAILING remains "onshore" despite the fact that land comes and goes nearby.
Yet another distinction might help: even wearing some glasses that limited your vision to, say, 50 feet while sailing some nice swell or waves, you could immediately tell whether the wind was "onshore", or "side-off", or "sideshore", or "offshore" simply by the relationship between the wind and wave directions, yet you wouldn't know whether there was a shoreline within miles.
OTOH, when one is standing on the shore of an ocean or a Great Lake, the term "offshore" takes on a whole new, life-threatening, meaning, but that is unrelated to this topic. |
Pure pedanancy.
Ask any coastal sailor of any sailing or fishing craft whether onshore wind means anything but the wind blowing in a primary direction toward shore. Thus, if away from the shore such shoreline is the leeward shore. It remains so labelled until the wind is blowing side shore.
That last sentence illustrates the inanity of your cramped definition which by its logic would define side shore wind as blowing perpendicular to the waves it generates.
Many of us know or are wavesailors. The relevancy of wind direction to the shoreline is important, and well understood terms describing the wind's relationship to the shoreline or launch are important for safety as much as gear selection.
Sylt is onshore, generally. Ho'okipa is side-side-off shore, generally. The Hatch is side shore, generally. Yet certain techniques associated with one direction may also apply in other directions.
What Josh probably means is that a side-shore DTL bottom turn doesn't work as well on the Gorge swell, whereas a turn resembling a bottom turn in onshore waves does work well in the Gorge.
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dllee
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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Location: East Bay
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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It's not the sailing direction or manuever that confounds most ocean sailing sailors in onshore winds, but it's the effects of the waves outside of the sailor, the current's in the whitewater, and the sailor's imaginative NEED to make it outside to ride a wave back IN, that confounds most onshore ocean wave sailors.
That actual off the side of the wave jumps, toeside turns, and heelside up over the whitewater moves are relatively easy.
Gorge, the whitewater might last 50 feet, then it's green again. Ocean shore, the whitewater can last a full city block, sometimes more, usually less, and the onshore current push is much stronger.
Neither is difficult, if you have the right gear, the right ATTITUDE, and some experience.
But for sure, Gorge sailing is much easier than surfsailing in the same wind conditions.
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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For wave sailing I never like to be overpowered (otherwise when I get on the wave I'm REALLY in trouble) and without footstraps I'm just looking for the sail to get me out, and then onto a wave. For bump and jump and flatwater then hell yeah powered to overpowered, but that's not for SUP for me.
| bred2shred wrote: | | PeconicPuffin wrote: |
How much smaller a sail are you using when you do this (ie you might be on a 5.8 and your 100l, but instead take your SUP out with ?) Or do you manage with the same sail size? |
I would personally always prefer to be in the range of powered to over-powered as opposed to under-powered to powered, so I wouldn't drop the rig size much if at all, just swap out the boards.
sm |
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dllee
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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I think this thread is about ONSHORE wind sailing in the surf.
As such, you want to be slightly overpowered, or just very powered up, as opposed to sideshore wind sailing, where you ride a wave to increase your board speed.
Onshore wind, you're working upwind, or away from the shore, so more power is appreciated. Underpowered, you can plane, but only with a row of whitewater, so you're heading for a LONG walk back to your launch site.
That's one of the differences between sideshore wind wavesailing and onshore wind sailing. The difference between Sylt and Backyards.
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