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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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 Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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swchandler said: | Quote: | In the end, I have to ask you, would you trade-in your current Medicare coverage for a private healthcare insurance plan? If you have a pre-existing medical condition like many of us do late in life, you might not even have that kind of choice. Medicare costs me, but I can rest assured that a health problem won't ruin me financially and force me into bankruptcy and abject poverty.
Shouldn't all Americans have the relative peace of mind that Medicare-type coverage can offer, particularly if it costs a lot less overall? |
No contemporary society can exist without taxes, but when too many individuals in a particular society becomes totally dependent on what others pay into the system, you will find a failing society. Obamacare or a single payer health care system is a big step in the direction that conservatives see as an ever encroaching socialistic society.
I have paid over a lifetime into Medicare, and I will likely receive more service than I paid for, but I could also do just fine without Medicare by purchasing my own insurance. That's possible because I was responsible in my lifestyle to save for plenty of rainy days. I have always lived within my means, something that many in today's society seem incapable of doing. Our government's deficit spending isn't a very good example for those that are dependent.
If there was a way to fund a single payer healthcare system without raping those that have been responsible throughout their lives, go for it, but it just isn't going to happen. |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I have to ask, what would you propose that we do for the folks that fail to measure up to your conservative standards? Believe me, there a lot of them living in red states like yours.
Like you, I have saved sufficiently for my later years. So, I'm hardly on the edge of catastrophe, but can we turn our backs to the folks that failed to prepare like we did? Is society really about the winners and losers, and can we just crap on those that failed to achieve for one reason or another? What do we do with the losers? |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:09 am Post subject: |
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swchandler said: | Quote: | | I have to ask, what would you propose that we do for the folks that fail to measure up to your conservative standards? Believe me, there a lot of them living in red states like yours. |
Life is about choices, and those that make poor choices are destine to suffer the consequences. However, there will always be some that because of unforeseen circumstances, will fall on hard times and need assistance to help them recover, plus there are some that are incapable (not by choice) of managing life on their own. We have plenty of support for these, and unfortunately, that support sometimes goes WAY overboard for many and they become accustomed to sucking off the government teat for a lifetime. That means that you and I pay for it.
Taking responsibility for one's choices in life seems to be waning away in today's society. For example, healthcare costs in the US as a result of obesity is $190 billion a year (another source says 21% of healthcare costs are from obesity). That's money down the tubes because of bad choices. Heartless?? Sort of like windsurfing and not knowing how to swim and choosing to not wear a floatation device. |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14890
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | swchandler said: | Quote: | | I have to ask, what would you propose that we do for the folks that fail to measure up to your conservative standards? Believe me, there a lot of them living in red states like yours. |
Life is about choices, and those that make poor choices are destine to suffer the consequences. However, there will always be some that because of unforeseen circumstances, will fall on hard times and need assistance to help them recover, plus there are some that are incapable (not by choice) of managing life on their own. We have plenty of support for these, and unfortunately, that support sometimes goes WAY overboard for many and they become accustomed to sucking off the government teat for a lifetime. That means that you and I pay for it.
Taking responsibility for one's choices in life seems to be waning away in today's society. For example, healthcare costs in the US as a result of obesity is $190 billion a year (another source says 21% of healthcare costs are from obesity). That's money down the tubes because of bad choices. Heartless?? Sort of like windsurfing and not knowing how to swim and choosing to not wear a floatation device. |
900 club your religion is blocking reality...
Every other developed nation in the world has socialized medicine and most if not all have higher pay more vacation time, and live longer and greater quality of life and their health care costs their society from 50 to 100 percent less. Thus with our pathetic health care system, we have a high cost added to our products we sell to other countries making us less competitive. Again is it 17% of our economy.
so it is not the persons lifestyle but the greed of the right wing.
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According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the United States spent more on health care per capita ($7,146), and more on health care as percentage of its GDP (15.2%), than any other nation in 2008. Spending 17.1% of its total GDP in 2013, the U.S. spends 50% more than the second highest, France at 11.6%.
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when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard. |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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baja said: | Quote: | | Every other developed nation in the world has socialized medicine |
Supporting socialized medicine with only half the population paying income taxes is not feasible. I wonder what percentage of the populations in all those other developed nations with socialized medicine actually contribute tax dollars to the healthcare system? |
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real-human
Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14890
Location: on earth
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | baja said: | Quote: | | Every other developed nation in the world has socialized medicine |
Supporting socialized medicine with only half the population paying income taxes is not feasible. I wonder what percentage of the populations in all those other developed nations with socialized medicine actually contribute tax dollars to the healthcare system? |
Gee are you inferring the united state's system is not as good as others in the world, or are you saying americans themselves are not.
Again we were number 1 in basically every metric till the right wing took over congress the first time in 40 years. Since regan declared war on americans and said piss on americans, called it trickle down. It has been the largest shift in income in US history to the negative since then. The rich got massively richer and the middle class got so much poorer. Are numbers are equivalent to a banana republic now in wealth disparity.
But you are welcome to check on those countries systems and report back to us with facts. As a note in almost all of those developed nations have free education even into university you come out debt free. An MD comes out of medical school debt free. and in some of those nations, they pay you a living fee while you are in school. and in some of those nations if you are from another nation and they admit you into their school again no fees what so ever and a living fee is paid to you by the government.
My gosh, some of those nations have an average of 6 weeks paid holiday. In Germany you even have i think it was cut back but use to be every year a free week at the spa, i think it is every 2 years now because things are so tough there.
Remember to research the developing nations that have healthcare for almost all like Mexico.
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when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17748
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | swchandler said: | Quote: | | I have to ask, what would you propose that we do for the folks that fail to measure up to your conservative standards? Believe me, there a lot of them living in red states like yours. |
Life is about choices, and those that make poor choices are destine to suffer the consequences. However, there will always be some that because of unforeseen circumstances, will fall on hard times and need assistance to help them recover, plus there are some that are incapable (not by choice) of managing life on their own. We have plenty of support for these, and unfortunately, that support sometimes goes WAY overboard for many and they become accustomed to sucking off the government teat for a lifetime. That means that you and I pay for it.
Taking responsibility for one's choices in life seems to be waning away in today's society. For example, healthcare costs in the US as a result of obesity is $190 billion a year (another source says 21% of healthcare costs are from obesity). That's money down the tubes because of bad choices. Heartless?? Sort of like windsurfing and not knowing how to swim and choosing to not wear a floatation device. |
Techno--I would support changes to the ACA that sent economic signals, like higher rates for smokers and the obese. That would require some cooperative work in the middle. I have a former brother-in-law who ate himself to date.
But with that said, there are people who are healthy despite smoking and obesity. And there are many obese women who are obese at least partly because they were sexually abused when young. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941402/
No incentive or disincentive system can perfectly capture these factors, and sexual abuse is not an area where women need to take "personal responsibility." |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Everybody has their idea about why healthcare and healthcare insurance are expensive paths today, and unfortunately, they both seem to grow more expensive each year. As I see it, one of the greatest parts of the problem is the folks without health insurance, or adequate insurance coverage.
Given the fact that folks without health insurance can receive treatment at most regional hospital ERs, other folks will have to pay for that in higher overall hospital costs and services. History has proven that.
If one wants to drive down the costs for healthcare, it's critical to ensure that more folks are properly insured. Ideally, that was supposed to be the ultimate goal of the ACA, with the government reasonably helping out those who were financially challenged.
Unquestionably for years now, Republicans have been doing everything that they can to disrupt the ACA at all levels. So now, when they are in power, they feel righteously justified and poised in repealing the ACA, and replacing it with a more dubious cheapskate model. Yet, as we all know already, tens of millions of folks appear to be a path to lose their healthcare insurance with the Republican's AHCA plan. Many are those with pre-existing conditions, to include an undeniable wealth of folks too poor to buy adequate health insurance. The proposed facade of state level high risk pools, and very limited voucher plans isn't going to stem the fallout.
What happens when folks that need healthcare can't get it a reasonable and responsible way? We all pay for it in higher healthcare costs. If there is any chance for a competitive private healthcare insurance system to work, most folks have to buy responsible health insurance coverage. If folks can't step up and take responsibility for themselves, the government needs to step in with a required Medicare/single payer program to ensure responsibility.
Like it or not, everyone has to pay for a civilized system of healthcare. |
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mac
Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17748
Location: Berkeley, California
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| Chandler--what is missing in the sneering talking points from the righties here is any understanding of what the ACA endeavored to do. Most particularly, it tried to begin moving te US health care system away from a pay for service approach to a pay for outcom approach. There are several different analyses that conclude that approach has successfully bent the cost curve downward. But sneering appears to replace thinking for some. |
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KGB-NP
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 2856
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| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Comparing Germany to the US, or many other countries, and what they offer their citizens, and what they provide in return, is so apples to oranges that it's not even funny. That would be, as one poster here likes to put it, "false equivalency". Go and live there, or be raised by those standards, then start making some comparisons that have any sort of validity. |
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