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Is foiling the future of light wind windsurfing?
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hilton08



Joined: 02 Apr 2000
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naish (Lift) and Sailworks (Flyer) also have foils specific sails coming for 2018 but all 3 brands seem to have a different idea about what a foil sail should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSXLofl1fOI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO55CVdZ6OM
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hilton08



Joined: 02 Apr 2000
Posts: 478

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The NP Flight looks like a typical race sail with 8 battens and 3 cams.
The Naish Lift looks like a soft wave sail with 3 1/2 battens and no cams.
The Sailworks Flyer falls in the middle, looking like a modern 4 batten wave sail but with a fuller foot and 2 cams.

http://www.sailworks.com/the-gear/sails/flyer.html
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2498

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb wrote:
But has ANYONE here experienced the lightwind ability of the foil vs the light wind ability of windsurfing? Which is what this post should be about...maybe?
Lots of videos showing foils zipping while beginner windsurfer's are slogging in the background.
What about real experience? Anyone?


I took the opportunity on Sat during the Rio Vista Grand Slam. Here is video footage that Kevin Pritchard took of the foils doing an upwind then slalom downwind race.
https://www.facebook.com/Rio-Vista-Grand-Slam-1125140297609173/

I went out with an 8.2 twin cam sail & 110 liter, 75 cm wide slalom board. During their race I was able to fan onto a plane with my setup quite easily but could not reach the upwind angles they were sailing. I stayed away from the race course so I could not compare board speed. If I would have gone down to my 7.5 I would have had to pump (work) onto a plane. I could have used my 85 liter slalom board & planed without pumping or my formula board & 9.2 or 10.0 & planed without pumping & been able to achieve the same angles they were. Also, take into account these guys that are racing in the video are very, very, very good.

That all being said it looks fun & in the right conditions could be ideal.

Coachg
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3641

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But did you notice the sail sizes of the foil rider's?
Chris on the orange/yelllow NP was on a 7.4 size sail, him 185 lbs and usinga Formula board.
And he needed to pump HARD, use his legs, ooch once planing, to get enough speed to plane the Formula board and lift onto the foil.
You were on 8.5 and slalom board, but did you have to pump hard and fully to get onto a plane.
Of course, a slalom board can't tour up to Collinsville as quickly as a Formula setup.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3641

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have used a small slalom board without planing if I were at Rio.....if I could get it to plane without hard pumping, over the 8.2 and wide slalom.
So, foils seem better at course slalom, just like kitesurf foiling.
Does everyone here care about heading upwind for 2 miles, then going downwind back to the launch? If that is a positive, then foils are good for that type of sailing.
As for speed, that is something else. Yes, Antoine can go pretty fast on his NP foils, but not as fast as he goes on his NP slalom kit.
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm hearing whispers about the devastating faceplants possible with this new sport.


Westender, any more details on this so us wanna be foil riders can prevent this?

For me I saw a lot of people trying to use a regular board with a foil, and I was not impressed. It seemed too narrow, not balanced right, and prone to dig into the water on touch down, causing a devastating faceplant as you say.

This is why I waited and finally bought the JP 155 Foil Board with the F4 foil. I believe it will be very stable, and the board is designed with very round edges to hit the water and not cause a faceplant but allow you to keep going. It is also extremely wide and not too long.

F4 has stated that even though this foil is high performance, as shown by Julian winning the Defi Wind on it, it is also good for learning because of its stability. They found no reason to make another foil for beginners.

As I am going to be trying this in the next few weeks without any lessons I have been thinking about how to start.

My guess is in the water this board will be extremely stable because the foil mast is longer than a dagger board and it has the wings. As you rise up just a little I assume it is still very stable, but of course the more you rise out of the water the less stable it will be. So my plan is to rise up but stay close to the water at first to prevent those faceplants and ride where it is most stable.

Anyway, if you have any details on those whispers please let us know so we can learn from others.
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1006
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whisper is, foil crashes can be WAY more painful than windsurfing and I wouldn't survive anything worse than some of the WS crashes I've had. Enjoy.
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3641

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rig to be "underpowered" in windsurfing terms. You need to HAVE to pump onto a plane, then keep pumping and bearing off to shift load to backfoot to foil up, but not too high.
Tune your sail with max downhaul, even if you think it's too small ...in windsurfing terms. You need to be able to luff slightly, and control the pull of the sail, which is about 1/3 what you'd feel windsurfing.
You stilll need puffs of 10-11 to pump onto a plane and can stay there in a bit lighter breeze, and as you get better, a bit less wind is needed.
If you're crashing a bit in a straight line, change directions by tacking, not jibing, as it's easier, slower, and safer.
Booms should be much lower than even slalom, as feel is more important than your ability to hold the sail.
Initally, try foiling unhooked, especially reaching or downwind.
Mast base location slightly back from windsurfing on the same dimension boards.
Sail sizing about what you'd use for underpowerd freeriding, no more. That might mean 1.5 meters smaller than slalom, and 2-3 meters smaller than Formula.
Don't attempt high speeds on a reach, instead feather out a bit and control the height of the ride, about mid foil. and try to sustain it for long runs until you can ride comfortably.
Make sure there is enough depth of water along your entire sailing venue.
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks zirtaeb, great advice. I will revisit your comment again before I go out the first time.

Westender, I have to admit, I have never had a painful crash in Windsurfing. I had one close call when I foolishly tried to stay on the board with a big wave coming at me and not enough wind, but other than that all for all my spills I find myself landing in the water or on the sail and not injured.

I do mostly blasting and riding small to medium sized waves and do not try freestyle tricks or loops or high jumping, so perhaps that is why.

I do have some spills, my last WindSUP board was cracked from side-to-side when I came off a wave at high speed and the nose dug into the water, but I was fine.

Based on some experts recommending a helmet for windfoiling I did purchase one, so my hat will be replaced with a helmet and I already wear a vest that gives me padding and flotation.

I also watched all the courses at http://www.foil-academy.com/courses/wind-foil-academy
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3641

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect as more younger rider's try foiling, there will be more progression and less of a learning curve.
Around here, most foilers are in their '60's, in age. That time of life, any crash can be catastrophic, and from 3' high, at 25 mph, certainly so.
There are some 18 year old, who race Formula, Slalom, and do Freestyle, who seem to take foiling lightly, but have no qualms about lifting off within the first 20 feet, rising to full heights, and relaxingly scan the crowd with a big smile.
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