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Optimal settings for seat harness lines and boom height
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 895

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No right or wrong. Its all about what works for you. I sail 22 inch lines with my seat... short by most standards, works for me. Just find what works for you by trying different set ups. Adjustable lines to start with until you get things set the way they work for you. My opinion is that the lines and boom height should be set for effort less high speed runs. I don't hook in much if I'm not planning. When I do get going I almost don't hang on to the boom with my hands. When you feel like you can let go with both hands then you got it right...
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18339

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOVAAN wrote:
My opinion is that the lines and boom height should be set for effort less high speed runs.

Others want them optimized for maneuvering or sailing styles. Or we can change boom height and/or line length on the water to facilitate changing conditions and/or changing objectives. That's one of the beauties of this versatile sport.
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
ittiandro wrote:
First, I thought that sailing with flexed (or bent) arms contravenes one of the basic principles we have always been taught, because, as any beginner has experienced, it destabilizes the sailor and ends up in falling..


I've never heard or experienced that in my 39 years at this.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not suggesting a T-rex posture. But even sailing in straight lines, our arms are much more comfortable with a slight bend at the elbow ... something like the same 10 or 20 degrees our elbows naturally seek when we let our arms hang beside us. It allows us to adjust sheeting angle dynamically as we react to wind and surface anomalies or change our path.

My comment
By straight, extended arms I never meant hyper-extended or locked arms, but slightly flexed at a 10 į-20 į angle, which is what you say. So we donít disagree on this.

ittiandro wrote:
Secondly, extended arms donít prevent you from temporarily flexing your arms to pull the boom towards you to adjust the sheeting angle and/or unhook and then reverting to straight arms.

What does your harness line do when you pull one hand toward you without pushing the other away commensurately? It falls out of the hook. Pulling both hands closer does the same even more quickly. And thatís just in beam reaching in straight lines on flat water. Add any directional changes or varying wind angles and those adjustments get more pronounced. Add terrain and maneuvering and they can get pretty extreme.

My comment
This is exactly what I mean t when I said that extended arms ( in the sense of slightly bent and not locked) donít prevent the sailor from temporarily flexing them to pull the boom closer and change the sheeting angle or unhooking..So, here again, we agree more than you think..


ittiandro wrote:
Thirdly, extended, straight arms donít necessarily entail locked joints. You can extend the arms without locking the joints.

Gymnastics coaches equate all three. Maybe youíre thinking of hyperextension, which is not a good thing.

My comment
I meant extending the arms without locking them, regardless of what Gymnastics coaches mean by extended arms.

ittiandro wrote:
Finally, you say that ďlocked (or fully flexed) joints are more subject to injury than anything in betweenĒ. Locked is the opposite of fully flexed. Perhaps you meanĒÖlocked or fully extended ÖĒ

Nope. Our joints are most exposed to injury when fully extended and when fully flexed, because the muscles involved lack the leverage (when fully extended) or contractile strength (when fully flexed) to aid the ligaments' efforts to prevent injury.

My comment
I see now that by saying" locked ( or fully flexed) joints "you are not equating them, but opposing them, as a pair of opposites.
I cannot see, though, how fully flexed joints are exposed to injury in the same way as locked joints. Perhaps you are right, but Iíll refrain from arguing this point because Iím no expert on this.




ittiandro wrote:
As I said, there may be something Iím missing here. May be you can clarify.

And that, folks, is why I tend towards long posts. Short ones leave too many unanswered questions from inquiring minds like Ittiandroís.

Hope Iíve clarified the issue somewhat without rankling the guys who think the locked out Figure 7 is the only way to windsurf, even for a novice.


Last edited by ittiandro on Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18339

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ittiandro wrote:
1. I see now that by saying" locked ( or fully flexed) joints "you are not equating them, but opposing them, as a pair of opposites.

2. I cannot see, though, how fully flexed joints are exposed to injury in the same way as locked joints. Perhaps you are right, but Iíll refrain from arguing this point because Iím no expert on this.


1. Correct. Once again, I chose brevity over clarity, and it confused the issue.

2. In a joint between straight (aka locked or fully extended) and completely flexed, the muscles that activate that joint can reinforce/splint the ligaments that stabilize the joint. However, when the joint is straight/fully extended/"locked", the muscles that should reinforce the ligaments have little to no leverage, and thus can't supply much stabilizing force. At full flex, those muscles are pretty much fully contracted; even at full recruitment (maximum signal strength) they can't produce a lot of pull to reinforce the ligaments. Between those joint angle extremes, the muscles have both the leverage and the contractile force to heavily reinforce the ligaments. Those joint angles, the muscles' leverage, and their available contractile force are each a continuum, varying somewhat among individual musculoskeletal geometries.

I'm certainly no expert, either, but, as usual, my source is. One such source is a book written by the team physician for the Philadelphia 76ers and the Philadelphia Ballet. [Another of his tenets is that stretching should be reserved for gymnasts and ballet dancers (because their job requires joint hypermobility at the expense of joint integrity and longevity) and medically prescribed injury or pathological rehabilitation. Virtually no one else should stretch before, during, or after exercise, for several reasons. Very similar research conclusions from many sources appear almost monthly in a wide variety of research literature.] So you wouldn't be arguing with me; I'd defer you to the professionals who earn big bucks in the field and let you duke it out with them. (The same goes for the semantical terms straight/fully extended/locked.)
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
ittiandro wrote:
1. I see now that by saying" locked ( or fully flexed) joints "you are not equating them, but opposing them, as a pair of opposites.

2. I cannot see, though, how fully flexed joints are exposed to injury in the same way as locked joints. Perhaps you are right, but Iíll refrain from arguing this point because Iím no expert on this.


1. Correct. Once again, I chose brevity over clarity, and it confused the issue.

2. In a joint between straight (aka locked or fully extended) and completely flexed, the muscles that activate that joint can reinforce/splint the ligaments that stabilize the joint. However, when the joint is straight/fully extended/"locked", the muscles that should reinforce the ligaments have little to no leverage, and thus can't supply much stabilizing force. At full flex, those muscles are pretty much fully contracted; even at full recruitment (maximum signal strength) they can't produce a lot of pull to reinforce the ligaments. Between those joint angle extremes, the muscles have both the leverage and the contractile force to heavily reinforce the ligaments. Those joint angles, the muscles' leverage, and their available contractile force are each a continuum, varying somewhat among individual musculoskeletal geometries.

I'm certainly no expert, either, but, as usual, my source is. One such source is a book written by the team physician for the Philadelphia 76ers and the Philadelphia Ballet. [Another of his tenets is that stretching should be reserved for gymnasts and ballet dancers (because their job requires joint hypermobility at the expense of joint integrity and longevity) and medically prescribed injury or pathological rehabilitation. Virtually no one else should stretch before, during, or after exercise, for several reasons. Very similar research conclusions from many sources appear almost monthly in a wide variety of research literature.] So you wouldn't be arguing with me; I'd defer you to the professionals who earn big bucks in the field and let you duke it out with them. (The same goes for the semantical terms straight/fully extended/locked.)


Thanks for your clarifications. I do appreciate your thoroughness and clarity. Misunderstandings or disagreements are inevitable at times, but clarity of language is an essential, albeit rare, ingredient. Perhaps Iím not as clear as I would like, at times, but English is not my native language after all.

Ittiandro
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zirtaeb



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3621

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also using 22" lines with seat harness, so lines are about 9" from my hook when slogging, but just right for planing conditions.
I almost always pump to get onto a plane, so don't hook in while slogging.
If I DO hook in while slogging, or coming off a plane, I have to jump up off the board at least 6" and pull down hard on the boom to unhook.
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kmf



Joined: 02 Apr 2001
Posts: 441

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So let's see....22 inch lines are actually 11 inches long...from boom to hook...

My lines at 26 inches are 13 inches long, and I can slog in them....

30 inch lines are 15 inches long....

No one here has arms that only reach 15 inches from their chest....

And we are hyperventilating over locked arms???

Must be a no wind day.



Rolling Eyes
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I begin to wonder if the geometry and design of boards like WindSups, with their considerable length and width, and their lack of foot-straps doesnít call for different settings from the ones usually applied to a shortboard, when it comes to harness lines, boom height, stance and perhaps other ( in addition, of course to the inevitable more subjective variations due to personal preferences, body build and ergonomics ).

IttiandroÖ
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2457

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Set Up Reply with quote

Ittiandro,

I think you are finally coming to the conclusion many of us have been telling you, there is no perfect setup. Even among some of the top instructors there is a stance & set up difference. Andy Brandt teaches a stance developed in the flat water Caribbean from freeride & freestyle, Matt Pritchard a different stance from the choppy Maui waters & Tinho Dornellas a different stance based on seat harness, long board & light wind short board racing.

Anyone can give you a starting point, but in the end you have to do what is comfortable for you. Experiment & take notes.

Coachg
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Set Up Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
Ittiandro,

I think you are finally coming to the conclusion many of us have been telling you, there is no perfect setup. Even among some of the top instructors there is a stance & set up difference. Andy Brandt teaches a stance developed in the flat water Caribbean from freeride & freestyle, Matt Pritchard a different stance from the choppy Maui waters & Tinho Dornellas a different stance based on seat harness, long board & light wind short board racing.

Anyone can give you a starting point, but in the end you have to do what is comfortable for you. Experiment & take notes.

Coachg


Yes, I am becoming increasingly aware of the subjective element and that there is ultimately no perfect set-up. But even so, I was wondering, again, , if the design and geometry of boards like windsups, very different from the shortboards, may not constitute an objective element to consider when applying certain settings, beyond any personal preferences and ergonomical constraints dictated by our individual body build..

Perhaps only dedicated longboarders or windsuppers have an answer. and there are not too many of them , compared to the ..hordes of shortboarders. This may be why the feed-back is rather limited.

Or perhaps there is simply no answer and my questioning is simply too speculative, if not wrong.. , but I thought I'd raise the question because I believe somebody else in this forum or elsewhere did it....

Thanks for your input

Ittiandro
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