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Best performance board with a daggerboard?
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2457

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Kona Reply with quote

Andy & I did a 35 mile down winder from Rio Vista to Sacramento down the deep water channel last summer on our Kona's. I used an 8.2, Andy the 9.0. We are planing another down winder from Richmond to Sherman Island which will be over 40 miles & for that one I may opt for a 7.3 sail.

Does that count as adventurous?

Coachg
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jamieinnyc



Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 102

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The title of your topic introduces subjectivity since performance means different things to different people. To me the only boards that perform upwind are raceboards (or formula given the right conditions, but to me not so much fun), since they are the only ones that have blades (centerboards) big enough to provide enough lift. Their length also provides better float and glide. I have a Kona Surf (not a Kona One, but same centerboard) alongside my raceboards, and while it definitely beats a "shortboard" (thought I would not call the Techno you have a shortboard) in sub-planing mode, it's not close to raceboard performance. Want a better shlog? Kona gives that to you for sure. Want real upwind performance? To me, Kona does not give that, but to be fair, nothing short of a raceboard does (again, excluding formula - for many reasons).

Note, I realize that Kona One is different from Kona Surf, and is likely better upwind - but still has the Aliger board that is too small IMHO. I wish the Kona had a centerboard trunk that would have allowed for a larger race-style daggerboard to be swapped in for conditions in which a flush deck is not essential.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2125

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spot on, and a welcome contribution Jamiennyc. A 'proper' raceboard will always get there first, and the Kona centreboard IS its weak point.

But tut tut Coach. You yell at me for plugging longboard adventuring, then go and admit to doing so yourself! I wonder how many more folk are about to crawl out of the woodwork?

But what about a proper circular (island) route next time, where at least half of the journey involves beating upwind, to prevent the non centreboard shortboard pretenders from claiming you don't need a longboard with centreboard to do that. (Downwind cruises.)
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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamie, 4 main differences between kona surf and kona one:

1. length, surf is 1 foot shorter

2. rocker, surf has a few more cm's in tail

3. rails, surf is a bit lower profile and surf oriented

4, but no least, dagger in kona surf STINKS compared to kona one.

just trying to keep to the blunt of the matter.

the surf was great in may ways.

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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamieinnyc wrote:
The title of your topic introduces subjectivity since performance means different things to different people. To me the only boards that perform upwind are raceboards (or formula given the right conditions, but to me not so much fun), since they are the only ones that have blades (centerboards) big enough to provide enough lift. Their length also provides better float and glide. I have a Kona Surf (not a Kona One, but same centerboard) alongside my raceboards, and while it definitely beats a "shortboard" (thought I would not call the Techno you have a shortboard) in sub-planing mode, it's not close to raceboard performance. Want a better shlog? Kona gives that to you for sure. Want real upwind performance? To me, Kona does not give that, but to be fair, nothing short of a raceboard does (again, excluding formula - for many reasons).

Note, I realize that Kona One is different from Kona Surf, and is likely better upwind - but still has the Aliger board that is too small IMHO. I wish the Kona had a centerboard trunk that would have allowed for a larger race-style daggerboard to be swapped in for conditions in which a flush deck is not essential.


I own 2 Kona One's and have traveled to races to sail other people's Kona One's... and none of them have the Aliger centerboard. I have other Exocet and Starboard longboards that do have these... but the Kona One does not. The centerboard in a Kona One is a molded epoxy board with a good foil. It is stiff and well shaped. The Aligier boards are plastic, not stiff, smaller, and not a great foil... they are fine for all round recreational use.
Anyway, I'm not saying the Kona One centerboard is as good as the carbon blades in my raceboards, they're not. But they're WAY better than the plastic Aliger centerboards in recreational windsurfers or WindSUP's.

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Greg
Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joethewindsufa wrote:
back in the day ....
there were MANY transition longboards ...
between 185 and 225 liters
the larger BIC Veloce, F2 Phoenix 320, Mistral Equipe I, Fanatic Ultra CAT, HiFly, Starborg 320 , etc, etc
now...
hmmm...

U2U2U2 wrote:
The Kona.
The NAISH Kailua


C'mon Joe... the boards you list are not "Transition Boards" Smile

PS - Transition boards first came out in the early 90's... they're what Craig is talking about, at the beginning of this thread... a Bic Rumba, for example. F2 had the Comet, Fanatic and Mistral made them as well. They were the smallest longboards, in each line-up. They were all between 10' and 10'6" about 300-320cm and low volume, like 150-160L. These are Transition boards. Most all the boards listed above are longboards.
PSS - And I would call a formula board, a shortboard. Anything under approx. 300cm without a centerboard is a shortboard.
Of course there are countless sub categories of shortboards.
PSSS - Conclusion. These days it's tough to categorize boards, cause there's a lot of cross over... so it's best to not use em. Better to just describe exactly what you're sailing... or what features you want Smile

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Greg
Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2125

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. I took the non centreboard Bic 160 (the original older model) out on saturday, in very light breeze (about 5 to 6 m.p.h.cross shore) flat water conditions with a rising tide, and a weak 1+ knot tidal flow (parallel to shore as tidal bulge moves along the coast) specifically to make sure I hadn't misrepresented its poor beating ability in slogging conditions. I hadn't!

Trying to beat against that very weak tidal flow in that very light breeze was problematic. The board is too short and too wide to grip the water, whatever tricks you use, so it simply slides a couple of feet down breeze, for every three feet pointed upwind. Not pointing it so high gives a little more speed, but it still side-slips, and you are not heading so high anyway. The net result is similar. (You can't rail the board in such a light breeze, and trying to use a bigger sail would probably make it worse.)

There is no problem when the board is planing. It is specifically a non planing issue with this size and shape. It is obvious that Bic must have come to the same conclusion, since they have now modified it by fitting a centreboard. I imagine that must help somewhat!
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joethewindsufa



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 881
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@gregnw44
believe it is you who always catches me on terminology Embarassed
as a big fat heavyweight , the boards i mentioned were my transition boards
boards like the F2 comet just did NOT do it for me
...
hope the OP gets something out of these discussions Confused
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 615

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe you're awesome... I'm just trying to get accurate info out there to newer sailors. And I'm like you, in that boards the size of Comet's and Rumba's don't make sense for me either. They are GREAT though, for lots of people. And I have access to one for "those people".

Anyway I didn't say anything, till "you got on couchg about terminology"... and then I thought, this is just too ironic Smile
And... there might be newer sailors that actually are trying to categorize boards (with fancy terms) and we shouldn't confuse them.

It started when Craig gave good info, early in this thread and used the term "transition boards" which the industry established in the early 90's... and the example of the Bic Rumba.
Then later you added info, "listing more transition boards"... but your list wasn't quite right... still though, I didn't take the time to say anything (not that big a deal I thought).

But then, when you challenged coachg later regarding his "shortboard terminology", I thought this is TOO funny so I had to say something. I even quoted you in my post... trying to be "clever" and entertain myself, and I thought you'd "get the irony".

My bigger intention was to help newer sailors, who are shopping for gear.
And the safer conclusion, that using actual board names and specs is better than "general terms" which everyone doesn't know Smile

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Greg
Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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joethewindsufa



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 881
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

funny ... Smile

we do need to help people with the windsurf categories
i did try ... once ...
http://joewindsurfer.blogspot.ca/2016/02/windsurf-board-categories.html
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