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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 614

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg wrote:
10-15, 10-18, 10-20 is plenty of wind for me easily planing with 7.3 to 5.5 depending on the average wind speed on 65 & 75 cm wide boards, a setup that easily fits into my Prius. In this situation I'm not really interested in foiling right now. Over time that may change & I may find myself wanting to foil in higher winds.

Right now I am targeting the 8-12 winds, thus the reason for ordering the Naish foil setup. Wind speeds that I would normally use a Kona, formula or large -85 cm wide-slalom board with 8.2-10 sails. The larger gear easily fits in my van but not my Prius. My goal is to carry my 65 cm Hawk & Naish Hover 122 that is 73 cm wide along with one boom, two masts & three sails for 8-24 mph winds at my local lake that is along my work commute. I prefer to only use my van for day trips as opposed to daily commute.

Greg,
I have access to Starboard Go & Rio with deep tuttle boxes. The Rio is much heavier with the centerboard but is also much longer. Both boards are around 80 cm wide I believe. Would you suggest my first few runs on one of those boards with the Naish foil before switching to the Hover 122?

Coachg


My thought about an early Go board, as a frugal and practical first foil board... was especially for Joe... or those who are bigger guys... or those who are in flat water and lighter wind... or those who don't have expert windsurf skills... or those who don't want to spend time fixing fragile boards... and others. I figured old Go boards (Nova's etc.) are probably out there, not being used, and can be purchased for reasonable $.
But for you Coach... nah, you're in a different category!
I'm pretty sure you're a lighter guy... and you have pro skills... and you have access to more boards... and you spend $ on new gear... so, no, you are in a different category Smile
I'm not an expert on all Starboards boards... but I know they've really changed Go's and Rio's over all the years. My experience foiling with Go's are the - '01 Go Friendship and the '03/'04 Go 165. These two models are quite different, but close enough (for me) and both worked fine for foiling. My friend in the Gorge (a big guy who only foiled in light to med wind) that I mentioned, foiled 100 miles and loved the Go for learning... has the '01 model.
Did Rio's always have centerboards? I know they're bigger than Go's... right? Anyway, no, I don't see folks using that for foiling (but maybe?).
Anyway, with your light weight and pro skills and decades of quality experience... you'll be fine stating right off with the Naish Hover. I mean, it wouldn't hurt to use the Go you have, cause it would work fine. And maybe it's more durable, so you'll damage it less, when getting launched. And after you get some skills, and less crashing... you could switch to the Naish, and have no damage.
Note - As you experts know, to get foiling in really light wind in flat water... you'll have to be a light weight guy... and you'll have to pump like a Raceboard or RS:X pro. Or... you'll have to be a wave guy, and use waves to get going fast enough to get up flying.

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Greg
Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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Wind-NC.com



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 916
Location: Formerly Cape Hatteras, now Burlington, VT!

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've used narrower boards similar in spec to the Naish and shorter wider boards like the Wizard (and lots of stuff in between, too). As I've noted before, you kind of want to try to match up the board with the foil with the sails... Low aspect foils are fine with narrow (or wide) boards. Higher aspect foils are happier on wider boards.

If you're going for angles, like the PWA guys in their straight upwind/downwind races, then you'll be rigging giant cambered sails with formula type boards, and really high aspect foils.

If you just want to cruise around, then the narrow boards and low aspect foils, and smaller super light and baggy sails are great.

As far as get up and go in light winds goes... Seems to be a wash between the narrower boards gliding up to that magic 10 knot board speed with ease, versus the wider boards pushing up onto a plane to get to that 10 knot board speed... Seems to me like the narrower boards allow you to "try" to get flying much sooner due to their acceleration, while the wider boards... will just kind of sit there until there is a puff of wind that is definitely strong enough to get going. Pretty much exactly the same as the age old long board versus formula board comparisons...

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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 614

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wind-NC.com wrote:
I've used narrower boards similar in spec to the Naish and shorter wider boards like the Wizard (and lots of stuff in between, too). As I've noted before, you kind of want to try to match up the board with the foil with the sails... Low aspect foils are fine with narrow (or wide) boards. Higher aspect foils are happier on wider boards.

If you're going for angles, like the PWA guys in their straight upwind/downwind races, then you'll be rigging giant cambered sails with formula type boards, and really high aspect foils.

If you just want to cruise around, then the narrow boards and low aspect foils, and smaller super light and baggy sails are great.

As far as get up and go in light winds goes... Seems to be a wash between the narrower boards gliding up to that magic 10 knot board speed with ease, versus the wider boards pushing up onto a plane to get to that 10 knot board speed... Seems to me like the narrower boards allow you to "try" to get flying much sooner due to their acceleration, while the wider boards... will just kind of sit there until there is a puff of wind that is definitely strong enough to get going. Pretty much exactly the same as the age old long board versus formula board comparisons...


Good comments and info... well said.

I don't know if my LP windfoil is a low or high aspect foil. But I've seen experts doing tricks on it... and wave sailing it on little waves... and guys using little sails (5 & 6m) with it, in 15 mph wind. But I've also seen experts ripping up and down wind on it. These guys have described it as a free-ride foil. Most of the Gorge experts have used big slalom boards with it (cause they sold their FW some years ago). The friend I've mentioned has done 100 miles of flying on it, with a '01 Go board. I've used a '04 FW with it.

My goal with it, is to fly me (200 lbs) around, back and forth, in marginal wind like 5 to 20 mph, mostly 10-15 stuff. I'm not going to race at all. On the boards I've used, I am using my front strap most the time, but have removed the back strap, and put my back foot in different places, so far.

I'm sure that as more foils come out, people will want to categorize them into groups. And as people race them, and wave sail them, and do tricks with them... people will figure out which designs excel at different things. And just like other windsurf gear, there will be designs for free-riding which do all of it, just not to the highest level of competition.

If you have a wider board, but a lower aspect foil... you can put your feet more near the centerline, and make the foil perform they way you want. Once you're in the air, the foil doesn't care what kind of board you're on. All that matters is where your feet, weight, leverage... is located.

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Greg
Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wind-NC, you mentioned "Higher aspect foils are happier on wider boards."

It that because higher aspect foils are less stable but big boards are more stable, so the two help to balance each other out? I believe larger boards also have more angle for upwind sailing, not sure.

If the above is true then a large board on a low aspect foil would be the most stable platform. Good for just starting out, or perhaps even gusty winds where a stable platform is needed.

Your analysis of light winds is great too. That is exactly what I have to do on my JP 155 foil board. I have to wait until that puff of wind comes, and hope it is strong enough that together with a few pumps and perhaps being on the downward side of some chop I can get going. If I am on the wrong side of the chop or it is too light I can't really get going.

I suspect that might be why Naish went with a narrow board, as he found it would get going in lighter winds easier because you could glide up to that magic speed for take off. However, if my assumptions above are true it also creates a less stable platform.

One thing I am learning about with foils is you can't have it all. For every change you make to improve, something else will not be as good.

For example, low aspect foils are more stable, but they are not as fast. Large boards might be more stable, but they are not as easy to get going in the lightest winds.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 614

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Higher aspect foils are happier on wider boards."
Is that because higher aspect foils are less stable but big boards are more stable, so the two help to balance each other out? I believe larger boards also have more angle for upwind sailing, not sure.

No bryn, I don't think that's it.
I think it might be, that, higher aspect foils (long skinny wings) might want to roll over more at high speed. And therefore you need a wider board, so you can stand out farther from the centerline, to counter-act this and keeps things level.

For regular windsurfing, this is why FW are so wide. They want a big deep fin, so you can sail up and down wind at severe angles. But you can't put a 70 cm fin on a regular width board, cause when you start going fast, it'll roll-over. The wide FW with straps on the rail, is so you can balance against that.

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Greg
Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 614

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And regarding board width and getting planing (on a regular board) or flying on a windfoil -
It's more than just board width.
It's also sailor weight... board vol... board length... sailor pumping skill, etc.
I would (at 200 lbs) get planing or flying faster on your JP 155 than the Naish Hover... cause your board is 155L and the Hover is 122l vol.

A much lighter person, who is very fit and has great pumping skills "might" get the 122L Hover flying as fast as a 155L JP. However, when they foil-out and land hard... they are going to have more crashes, cause the smaller board platform will sink and stop more. I mean, when the lighter person lands hard on the bigger foil board, it will be a softer splash-down. They probably won't sink down in the water, stop, and crash. They will probably bounce right back up in the air.
Foiling-out... and doing touch n go's... are very common when learning this. Doing these on a little board will mean more crashes into the water.
Doing these on a bigger board will mean, softer landings, and you won't end up "in the water: as much.
Of course, sailor skill and natural athleticism, will decrease these issues as well... which is why some people will be fine starting on a smaller platform.

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Seattle, WA
Longboarding since '81
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Sailing long and short boards, every year since then.
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great points Greg.

You have verified why I wanted a larger board. I just assumed it would be easier, and you have given a reason I did not think about until now.

As I learned I rarely crashed. I foiled out many times when starting like you said, and came down but my 155 lbs on the JP 155 liter board almost always recovered.

I would like to add I think the Naish WS foil is nicer for learning on. The mast is not as high so your foil outs are softer, and everything happens in slow motion compared to faster foils. This means as you go up it is slower, so you have more time to think and correct it before foiling out.

Based on what you said I am surprised Naish is not offering a wider board. I think their foil targets windsurfers just starting out, but their board is probably a little more complicated than a wider board, especially when touching down hard.
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2457

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Foil Boards Reply with quote

Greg,

Iím neither a pro nor a lightweight. More of a middleweight at around 170 pounds and I really donít spend that much $ on windsurfing gear. If this foiling thing doesnít work out for me, Iíll be able to sell the setup at or very near my cost due to the discounts I get as long as I donít damage the kit.

Foils are wings so Iím approaching this from that aspect. The Naish is like a Cessna, doesnít need much power to get flying but not capable of great speed. The higher aspect ratio foils are like F15ís & need more power-larger sails/boards-to get going but are capable of greater speeds. Not what I am looking at right now.

This foiling thing is a whole new area so there is quite a bit of contradictory information out there right now. My main concern/curiosity is on foiling-out. I know it is going to happen as you say but it raises a great question. Is foiling-out like landing a jump? If so I can tell you as a person who has jumped 55 cm to 85 cm wide boards that the narrower boards are easier to land.

Also on the foil-outs I see volume distribution as maybe more important than total volume. My 110 liter Isonic takes very little pressure to sink the nose vs. my 101 lite Skate that has much more float in the nose. In a nose landing with either board I can guarantee you the Skate would be more likely to not submerge. The Naish is 122 liters & 73 cm wide which is a fairly big board at my weigth.

Coachg
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coachg, I think the foiling will work out.

I do not think it is like landing a jump because with a jump you have more control, you are probably expecting it, and you plan to land in a way where it feels best.

The foiling-out is not planned, and because of this you land with all different parts of the board.

Foiling-out is normally caused by a gust that lifts you faster than you can adjust your weight or let some power out of your sail. Another way is you adjust your back foot, putting it further back, and before you know it you have too much lift.

I find many times the front of the board hits the water first, some times the front side of the board. This is why the JP foil board has a very wide front with very rounded edges. They don't want anything to dig into the water when you land, the goal is to bounce off the water and keep going.

If your board digs in, there is a good chance it will slow down too much while your body keeps moving forward, thereby causing the catapult.

Once in a while you will land a foil out like you land a jump, but it is probably the exception, rather than the rule. Of course the people purposely foiling-out have control and can land it like a jump, but that is not the type of foiling out beginners do.

You are right with volume distribution, boards which have a front end that floats good are probably better.

Also, I have heard bigger boards have another advantage when foiling out. That is they hit the water sooner. To visualize this think about a really short foil board like Kai Lenny uses vs. a fairly long board. As the nose starts to come down the longer board will hit the water much sooner than the short board. So this means the angle for the long board will not be as steep. If the board is really short it will keep tilting nose down until it finally hits the water. By that time the tilt you have is far greater, so more chance it will dig in.

This same idea works with the edges too with a wide board vs. narrow board. Many times an edge is the first thing to hit, so a wide board will hit the water before the narrow board does so it creates a little softer angle.

I enjoy now coming down sometimes without a foil-out and hitting the water on purpose. It helps me to be more comfortable on tight turns, and I even use it to cool off as I can purposely come down and dig the edge into the water, thereby splashing water all over me. I still have my momentum so I can then bounce right back up on the foil without losing my pace.

I have never tried a narrow board for foiling, but my guess is those types of maneuvers would be more difficult to do as I would have the steeper angle problem with a smaller board as mentioned above.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 287

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using one of the more "surfy" foils on a formula board. Basically once you are flying it's about leverage. If you use a larger sail with accompanying increased MBP that tends to roll the board leeward and on a narrow board that can be tough to control. If you expect to be in 8-14 and using a +7m then a wider board is easier to control, especially if the wind gets up a bit.
With my Slingshot if I get in the footstrap I'm pretty much on autopilot for going upwind. If I want to sail comfortably off the wind my front foot goes behind and inside of the strap, the rear practically over the fin box. I'm considering installing a second set of inserts to allow a strap in that position.

The wider/longer (mine is old) board definitely gives you fewer dunkings.
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