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Wing sail is reality now
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

may be because I sail at 1000 meters altitude (3000 ft), AB where Rockies meet the prairies, and the air is dry too...
there is no way I 'll be powered with 4.5 +75 l at 50 km/hr (which is 30 mph)
I need at least 60 km/hr (extra 6 mph) for that
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18334

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much of my sailing for many years was at 4,000-5,000 feet in NM, and dry air is denser than humid air. It certainly meant bigger sails, but IIRC the air density difference, thus sail size difference, was about 10%. I'm guessing the main difference is between wind speeds as measured on the shore and the actual wind speed out on the lake. Not that it's important as long as we know what works for a given site, but it can matter when we go to a different site. Two particular Gorge sites are dramatically different in sail size vs reported wind speed, and both sites have sensor placement "issues".
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bred2shred



Joined: 02 May 2000
Posts: 892
Location: Jersey Shore

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kilogramm -

This weekend's forecast looks like the wind may provide you with an opportunity to put some proof behind the claims of your wingsail's functional wind range. Are you going to sail? If so, maybe you can shoot some video. I would love to see the 5.8 being used in 30-40 mph wind as claimed Very Happy

SAT
SW winds around 10 kt with gusts up to 20 kt, increasing
to 20 to 25 kt with gusts up to 35 kt. Seas 2 ft or less, then
4 to 7 ft early in the morning. Mainly in SE swell with a
dominant period of 10 seconds.

SUN
W winds 25 to 30 kt with gusts up to 40 kt. Seas 6 to
9 ft, subsiding to 4 to 6 ft in the afternoon. A chance of
showers in the morning.

sm
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bred2shred wrote:
kilogramm -

This weekend's forecast looks like the wind may provide you with an opportunity to put some proof behind the claims of your wingsail's functional wind range. Are you going to sail? If so, maybe you can shoot some video. I would love to see the 5.8 being used in 30-40 mph wind as claimed Very Happy

SAT
SW winds around 10 kt with gusts up to 20 kt, increasing
to 20 to 25 kt with gusts up to 35 kt. Seas 2 ft or less, then
4 to 7 ft early in the morning. Mainly in SE swell with a
dominant period of 10 seconds.

SUN
W winds 25 to 30 kt with gusts up to 40 kt. Seas 6 to
9 ft, subsiding to 4 to 6 ft in the afternoon. A chance of
showers in the morning.

sm
yes, will be in seaside park flats tomorrow at 1 pm , you can demo my sail as well . But usually at autum they forecast more than it actually happens Anyway wind 30 kt + would be very good. Im already pack winter sailing gloves.
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, kilo let me assure you that I am still your possible end user.

I am finding your design very interesting and I think you belong to 1% of people that move the progress forward.

That said, it is obvious that your wing has a lot of side effects.

The three biggest issues for me personally are:

1. As mentioned in this thread because it floats it may be a run away at high winds. If you got disconnected and it drifts faster than you can swim, it is a disaster, a showstopper, and essentially this alone limits your wind range.

For example one can probably easily swim to your 5.8 in 15 knots, or in 20 knots, or barely at 25 knots and than at 30 knots the rig will be drifting faster than you (put your numbers, I am just guessing).
That essentially means that your upper wind limit is effectively 25 knots not 45 knots. I.e. even if your sail maintains stability at 40 knots one would be a bit insane to sail it in this wind just for the fear of loosing it.

If this is a case, you can actually rectify this - e.g. you can decrease flotation, although this will probably decrease the stability.
As a result one will be able to swim and catch it not at 25 knots but at 35 knots and the lift will start wandering not at 45 but at 35 knots.
Essentially that will mean that you increase your effective upper wind limit from 25 knots to 35 knots (despite decreasing stability)

2. Another problem is that the mast in your design is not grabable. There is a bladder in the way around the mast and boom cutout is very narrow, and on top of it you insist it has to be covered.
There are two consequences: the jybe is possible only boom to boom, not boom to mast. And the light air waterstart by lifting the mast and walking along the mast towards the boom is cumbersome.
And right now your sail is not possible to tack - because you need to take the mast with your hand below the boom and then yank it forward as you teleporting your body to another side.

The ability to grab the mast in the middle of the jybe is often a jibe saver, for example if you loose the speed before the flip or other mistake.
(And on the light air I will elaborate in much more detail in separate post.)

I can't understand why you insisting on such a short boom cutout, and keeping it covered. Improved aerodynamics you say? But how much you will loose in this performance with a standard length open boom cutout?

As related to previous point, and only as an idea, because you obviously know your design much better, you can:
use standard length boom cutout,
use those covers as an opional part (there are velcro attached anyways, so those are optional in essence already)
and change the shape of the bladder around the boom (i.e. boom cutout in the bladder as well)

This way one can grab the mast below/above boom on the jybe exit (or during the tack for that matter) - long open area of the mast with no bladder around it.

As a result of this change you probably will loose flotation and you may loose the stability at 45 knots (who cares at 45 knots and 5.8 sail in one sentence)
So effectively with one shot you will increase effective wind range and make your sail much more user friendly.

3. The third issue is very generic. When I buy a new car I avoid the new year model. Let say Camry 2014...2017 is the same car and in 2018 it is a new Camry (no idea actually, I am using this for the sake of an example; I dont drive Camry). Although it is the same brand and the same model I'll rather buy 2017 than 2018.

With a new sail maker those concerns are unavoidable. But for example you mentioned that you will be putting the video of how to replace the batten. For me it leads to the Q: what? battens are broken? I broke only one batten on my Retro in 18 years and that happened in the Pacific shore break.
Battens should not brake! Which leads to the Q where you buy it, what is the construction, or do you produce those yourself...

I think you should address those issues.
I understand this is uphill battle for you (or rather upwind one, pun intended) but this is the fate of every inventor, you brought it in yourself.
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My other point is light air.
I do not think you have tested your existing 5.8 in light air.
Your Exoset 58 is 80 liter (google said so)

I used to sail my 6.0 with 85 liter but only when it was a good wind.
When it was dieing just a bit the whole rig was out of balance.
Likewise there were sessions when I was overpowered on 5.0 and 90 liters and instead rigging a smaller sail I was continuing on 5.0 + 75 liters and I was very well but comfortably powered.
In lighter 5.0 conditions 75 liter board becomes a bitch.

I am now using 6.0 with 103 liter board primarily.
And on a few occasions I was sailing my 6.0 with 130 liters free race board.

You mentioned that before your R&D you had 6.5 that you liked and 7.0 that you hated.
I am guessing your biggest board was this 80 liters and you were trying to use it with this 7.0 with predictable result.

Besides if you have a 6.5 your next one should be 7.8 or 8.0 or may be 8.5.
Not 7.0 (and I am talking about regular conventional sails here). 7.0 vs 6.5 is like 4.2 vs 4.0 - practically the same.

The point is that you should make yourself a favor and test your 5.8 in light air on 110 liter, 70 cm wide modern race board, and try to waterstart in this light wind, when you have to push it hard up, not "the wind does everything for you"
And you should check how soon it planes, and how it behaves when you pump it.

This is very ironic actually because for blasting at high speeds in flat water and really small chop with high speed jybes in between... the light air is the best!

I know many, and on this forum particularly, live in the high wind destination and sail only Gorge or waves in SF Bay or in HI
They do not care for big sail and blasting. I don't blame them, but I am not that fortunate, and I am not an advanced but just a mediocre sailor.

But check me in this video torturing myself on 8.5 and 7.0 on Formula and on 145 liter free race Fanatic Ray

https://vimeo.com/237654381

no fan at all, don't even know why was not I sitting instead in front of TV or play golf...

For some reason I didn't care how big was my equipment, and once in footsraps and harness it somehow looked and felt very similar to windsurfing...

Besides testing your 5.8 with bigger race board in lighter air I would think that your wing design will be the best realized with 8.5 meter. It appears that it will be perfect for Formula and free race boards from 100 to 145 liters with width in 70 to 82 cm. Those are pure blasting conditions and if this single wing could handle everything from 8.5 to 6.0 this would be the huge achievement.

I really think that 8.5 wing will be outstanding with bigger race boards in light air. Do it! If anything you will increase your personal time on the water two fold!


Last edited by alap on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 286

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alap I like your nose padding!

I also agree that this design would far favor going after the larger sail sizes. Once I'm on a board that small I want a sail that depowers, turns and doesn't blow away; no point in flat water blasting a small sinker.
Unfortunately this is a good example of how a one-person, one-location development team doesn't build a product that is good for a variety of users or uses.

-Grant
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well he made an excellent invention, I hope he will listen to positive ideas and build a really great product in the end
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grantmac017 wrote:
Alap I like your nose padding!

I also agree that this design would far favor going after the larger sail sizes. Once I'm on a board that small I want a sail that depowers, turns and doesn't blow away; no point in flat water blasting a small sinker.
Unfortunately this is a good example of how a one-person, one-location development team doesn't build a product that is good for a variety of users or uses.

-Grant
just curoius, why do you think that there is issue to depower sail (funny) and why do you need suddenly depower sail on small speed or slalom board. Also what variety of use you are talking about. Isn't your primitive race, speed ,freeride sail doing same thing ? Dont you get it yet? Your pdimitive sail has very small, narrow performance envelope. Dont we all agree on it? Dont we agree that primitive absolutely usless outside of envelope? Isn't why you rush to change it when wind blows a little bit stronger? Duh...
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alap wrote:
My other point is light air.
I do not think you have tested your existing 5.8 in light air.
Your Exoset 58 is 80 liter (google said so)

I used to sail my 6.0 with 85 liter but only when it was a good wind.
When it was dieing just a bit the whole rig was out of balance.
Likewise there were sessions when I was overpowered on 5.0 and 90 liters and instead rigging a smaller sail I was continuing on 5.0 + 75 liters and I was very well but comfortably powered.
In lighter 5.0 conditions 75 liter board becomes a bitch.

I am now using 6.0 with 103 liter board primarily.
And on a few occasions I was sailing my 6.0 with 130 liters free race board.

You mentioned that before your R&D you had 6.5 that you liked and 7.0 that you hated.
I am guessing your biggest board was this 80 liters and you were trying to use it with this 7.0 with predictable result.

Besides if you have a 6.5 your next one should be 7.8 or 8.0 or may be 8.5.
Not 7.0 (and I am talking about regular conventional sails here). 7.0 vs 6.5 is like 4.2 vs 4.0 - practically the same.

The point is that you should make yourself a favor and test your 5.8 in light air on 110 liter, 70 cm wide modern race board, and try to waterstart in this light wind, when you have to push it hard up, not "the wind does everything for you"
And you should check how soon it planes, and how it behaves when you pump it.

This is very ironic actually because for blasting at high speeds in flat water and really small chop with high speed jybes in between... the light air is the best!

I know many, and on this forum particularly, live in the high wind destination and sail only Gorge or waves in SF Bay or in HI
They do not care for big sail and blasting. I don't blame them, but I am not that fortunate, and I am not an advanced but just a mediocre sailor.

But check me in this video torturing myself on 8.5 and 7.0 on Formula and on 145 liter free race Fanatic Ray

https://vimeo.com/237654381

no fan at all, don't even know why was not I sitting instead in front of TV or play golf...

For some reason I didn't care how big was my equipment, and once in footsraps and harness it somehow looked and felt very similar to windsurfing...

Besides testing your 5.8 with bigger race board in lighter air I would think that your wing design will be the best realized with 8.5 meter. It appears that it will be perfect for Formula and free race boards from 100 to 145 liters with width in 70 to 82 cm. Those are pure blasting conditions and if this single wing could handle everything from 8.5 to 6.0 this would be the huge achievement.

I really think that 8.5 wing will be outstanding with bigger race boards in light air. Do it! If anything you will increase your personal time on the water two fold!
look, maybe . Im looking forward explore that possibility, and I will, as it is now a bit exosted. In old days I had bigger boards, my 7.0 was very stable but I hate it because there is no chalange. No andrenaline, boring. When I start with wing sail I use board 100 liters 64 something wide. Under wing that board behave like big boat, so I switch for smaller more fun boards. People who tried my sail with my 54 speed, saying : Oh I love the board, its so stable! You not the only one who point to bigger size. Customers who bought sail from me wants to buy size up for lighter wind. Here is anothet concern . Bigger sail just like 5.8 will handle strong wind meaning it will be well controllable even in hurricane, also it will produce adequate lift. It will be crashes and injuries. I vant my customers get use to 5.8 adjust their gear and approach to sailing itself, than we can do something crazier .
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