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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 2800

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm said:
Quote:
just curoius, why do you think that there is issue to depower sail (funny) and why do you need suddenly depower sail on small speed or slalom board.

One answer is what happened to me yesterday. I was on a 6.0 and 105L board and eventually got overpowered as the wind was building. Overpowered means to me that I can still handle the power in the sail, but the speed of the board in the chop becomes overwhelming with a great potential to crash. I did hit a top speed of 30.8 mph (I always wear a GPS).

So if I rig down, then I can keep my speed in a comfortable range. If YOUR sail remains stable as the wind increases, then the assumption is that the board speed increases too. So now what happens as your board is running at 30+ mph through 2-3' lake chop? The average sailor will not be in control as their board speed increases from a bumpy 20-25 mph ride in chop to a 30+ mph ride in bigger chop. That's why we sheet out to maintain control or rig down to a smaller sail.

Most of us inland sailors are on bigger boards than those that sail where wind speeds are more steady, simply because of the gusty conditions and our desire to maintain a plane through the holes, and if needed, uphaul if the wind dies. Yesterday on one occasion, I waited at least 8 minutes in the water looking for wind to water start my 105L. I could have uphauled with a bit of a struggle, but I choose to wait it out. Winds were from 5-30.

Obviously, there's a wind speed where one simply can't hold on to a 6.0 sail, regardless of chop, but it's not just overpowered sails, it's also too much speed for the conditions (which varies by sailor skill and body weight).

I speculate that someone trying to use your sail on a sinker board in conditions like I was in yesterday would have had a very frustrating time, either with too much speed in the chop, or stalling and falling off in the windless holes. Water starting your sail would have been essential.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18332

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm wrote:
why do you need suddenly depower sail on small speed or slalom board. ... Y our pdimitive sail has very small, narrow performance envelope. Dont we all agree on it?

Not necessarily, as it's all relative. My "primitive" 5.2, for example, will get me planing as long as the wind is averaging 20 mph and remain fun until the wind is averaging 30 gusting > 35. Nothing like your wind range, but it also flits about like many 4.2s when dramatically changing directions every couple of heartbeats and (in the hands of sailors interested in such things) doing every kind of surface and aerial stunt in the book. Many of us/them don't LIKE stable boards/rigs and don't sail in straight lines, also known as mowing the lawn. Like everything else in this sport, almost everything is a tradeoff, and it seems to me that any manufacturer is better off (and more credible) emphasizing his product's advantages and downplaying its disadvantages instead of just saying it is superior in every way. Just as your wings probably outperform our "primitive" sails in some ways, the latter will outperform your highly specialized wing in numerous ways, applications, and sailing styles.

As for suddenly depowering the sail on any board, it's very nice to have when one spontaneously decides to jibe NOW and HERE rather than cruising around some buoy s/he saw coming a kilometer away or "'cause it's about time to head back towards shore".
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2457

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm wrote:
why do you need suddenly depower sail on small speed or slalom board.

I don't know about other people but when lit on my small slalom board I always depower the sail in a jibe to prevent getting pulled over the nose.

killogramm wrote:
Dont you get it yet? Your pdimitive sail has very small, narrow performance envelope. Dont we all agree on it? Dont we agree that primitive absolutely usless outside of envelope? Isn't why you rush to change it when wind blows a little bit stronger? Duh...


I'm not sure what you mean by a very small, narrow performance envelope. All of my sails have a pretty big performance envelope and it is very common for me to use one sail throughout the day. I never rush to change sails when the wind blows a little bit stronger but during the day I am likely to change boards/fins. It is the boards that have the smaller range, not the sails. I can walk my 5.0 Naish Force down from a 110 liter freeride board to a 70 liter wave board starting in the upper teens all the way up to the upper 20's and as stated earlier our wind rarely varies that much in a day.

Also, where I sail there are strong tidal currents. When the tide is flooding in the same direction as the wind our water state looks like you sailing location where you can sail a small slalom/speed boards. However, when the tide is ebbing against the wind the water state becomes more like the Gorge so the big swells make it impossible to sail on a starboard tack with small slalom boards at speed. You need a board that is slower & more maneuverable in those conditions with high cut footed wave sails to make life much easier.

Coachg
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alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm wrote:
In old days I had bigger boards, my 7.0 was very stable but I hate it .... People who tried my sail with my 54 speed, saying : Oh I love the board, its so stable!


so stability with 7.0 was bad feature, but stability with your wing is a good one...

sounds a bit Orwellian, like "war is peace"

you are selling the stability of your sail as its biggest advantage, and it comes with a lots of side effects (zippers, rigging, no window, etc.). I wouldn't criticize the stability of 100l + boards in this situation, and calling those boring and no challenging. Besides there always is a challenge in windsurfing - better jybes, more speed, new moves, better style, no matter how good or bad one sails... it is in the eyes of a beholder...
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bred2shred



Joined: 02 May 2000
Posts: 892
Location: Jersey Shore

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm wrote:
yes, will be in seaside park flats tomorrow at 1 pm ,

killogramm wrote:
Bigger sail just like 5.8 will handle strong wind meaning it will be well controllable even in hurricane


Enough conjecture...

Wind this weekend in NJ was a steadily builiding 15-25 on Saturday and a gusty 25-35 with gusts over 40 on Sunday. Perfect conditions for demonstrating all of the claims regarding your rig's range and stability. Let's see the video....

sm
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 752

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killogramm wrote:

just curoius, why do you think that there is issue to depower sail (funny) and why do you need suddenly depower sail on small speed or slalom board. Also what variety of use you are talking about. Isn't your primitive race, speed ,freeride sail doing same thing ? Dont you get it yet? Your pdimitive sail has very small, narrow performance envelope. Dont we all agree on it? Dont we agree that primitive absolutely usless outside of envelope? Isn't why you rush to change it when wind blows a little bit stronger? Duh...


I am not so sure about this. My sails have a fairly massive range. At 158 pounds I can sail my 6.5 Point-7 when 180 pounders are perfectly fine with a 4.7 ... and my 5.0 can take a real lot of wind. Better and heavier sailors than me can happily slalom with a 7.8 when most people are fine on 5.0.

And not to be disrespectful but a "Wind range for 5.8 14kt to 42kt " sounds a bit ... overstated? ... not so much for the range but for the wind speed. 41-47 knots is force 9 (small structural damage, foam spray on the water). I experienced it only a few times back when I was sailing in Sardinia and in those conditions I am not sure anybody could hold on a 5.8 in open water, just because of the sheer surface and the bloody mess around you.

Close water is a different story: go to luderitz and people hold on 5.0-5.8 cammed sails well in the high 40 knots. Yes, those are the sails that are supposed to be primitive! they go 50 knots plus as steady as a rock.



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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bred2shred wrote:
killogramm wrote:
yes, will be in seaside park flats tomorrow at 1 pm ,

killogramm wrote:
Bigger sail just like 5.8 will handle strong wind meaning it will be well controllable even in hurricane


Enough conjecture...

Wind this weekend in NJ was a steadily builiding 15-25 on Saturday and a gusty 25-35 with gusts over 40 on Sunday. Perfect conditions for demonstrating all of the claims regarding your rig's range and stability. Let's see the video....

sm
yep I was sailing today. Conditions sucks for me because my hands got cold right away session vas short, I shoot helmet cam video , coming tomorrow. I also demo sail for two guys, Luke Rasiej and Ilia Loco. Both on FB. You can ask them. Im surely will be asking them for review.
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
killogramm wrote:
why do you need suddenly depower sail on small speed or slalom board. ... Y our pdimitive sail has very small, narrow performance envelope. Dont we all agree on it?

Not necessarily, as it's all relative. My "primitive" 5.2, for example, will get me planing as long as the wind is averaging 20 mph and remain fun until the wind is averaging 30 gusting > 35. Nothing like your wind range, but it also flits about like many 4.2s when dramatically changing directions every couple of heartbeats and (in the hands of sailors interested in such things) doing every kind of surface and aerial stunt in the book. Many of us/them don't LIKE stable boards/rigs and don't sail in straight lines, also known as mowing the lawn. Like everything else in this sport, almost everything is a tradeoff, and it seems to me that any manufacturer is better off (and more credible) emphasizing his product's advantages and downplaying its disadvantages instead of just saying it is superior in every way. Just as your wings probably outperform our "primitive" sails in some ways, the latter will outperform your highly specialized wing in numerous ways, applications, and sailing styles.

As for suddenly depowering the sail on any board, it's very nice to have when one spontaneously decides to jibe NOW and HERE rather than cruising around some buoy s/he saw coming a kilometer away or "'cause it's about time to head back towards shore".
hmm. I start jibe in full power, when crossing windline I have 0 or little wind. Flip sail, power up and go. No depower.
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killogramm



Joined: 18 Jul 2000
Posts: 77

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvCali wrote:
killogramm wrote:

just curoius, why do you think that there is issue to depower sail (funny) and why do you need suddenly depower sail on small speed or slalom board. Also what variety of use you are talking about. Isn't your primitive race, speed ,freeride sail doing same thing ? Dont you get it yet? Your pdimitive sail has very small, narrow performance envelope. Dont we all agree on it? Dont we agree that primitive absolutely usless outside of envelope? Isn't why you rush to change it when wind blows a little bit stronger? Duh...


I am not so sure about this. My sails have a fairly massive range. At 158 pounds I can sail my 6.5 Point-7 when 180 pounders are perfectly fine with a 4.7 ... and my 5.0 can take a real lot of wind. Better and heavier sailors than me can happily slalom with a 7.8 when most people are fine on 5.0.

And not to be disrespectful but a "Wind range for 5.8 14kt to 42kt " sounds a bit ... overstated? ... not so much for the range but for the wind speed. 41-47 knots is force 9 (small structural damage, foam spray on the water). I experienced it only a few times back when I was sailing in Sardinia and in those conditions I am not sure anybody could hold on a 5.8 in open water, just because of the sheer surface and the bloody mess around you.

Close water is a different story: go to luderitz and people hold on 5.0-5.8 cammed sails well in the high 40 knots. Yes, those are the sails that are supposed to be primitive! they go 50 knots plus as steady as a rock.
such a controversial post....
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 996
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From one of your videos I did not see that skill level. I have a problem with your not knowing the conditions in the Gorge. Not a sail for the Gorge.

killogramm wrote:
hmm. I start jibe in full power, when crossing windline I have 0 or little wind. Flip sail, power up and go. No depower.
.
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