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Footstrap Positions
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18339

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

westender wrote:
For now, I would worry more about figuring out your strap fit adjustments. I avoid having my screws too close together wedging in the sides of my feet.

Definitely. All the strap arch height in the world isn't going to save your ankle if your front strap traps your foot laterally in a twisting fall. I stagger my front strap screw placement as widely as the two rows of holes permit on most boards and never notice the changed angle of the straps.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 8419

PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that you posted the video in the first place is telling, because that board had nothing to do with the topic. It must have been a little display of ego on your part. Hey, look at me on my high wind board using a 4.7! Also, what wave sailors and swell riders say about footstrap positions really has nothing to do with the topic, because none of them would be riding a four strap 114 liter Futura in the waves or swells.

Sounds to me like you're a wannabe wave sailor. Good luck ripping up those top-to-bottom tubes with your four strap 110 liter JP! Those inboard strap settings makes it all possible with full control.

LOL!
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1597

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
The fact that you posted the video in the first place is telling, because that board had nothing to do with the topic.


On the contrary. You wrote wrong about jibing and are trying to talk your way out of it. You wrote:

(THE FOLLOWING QUOTE IS MISATTRIBUTED BY ME TO SWCHANDLER...IT"S ACTUALLY BRED2SHRED's. I"M LEAVING IT HERE SO THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS MAKE SENSE, BUT AGAIN, SWCHANDLER DIDN"T SAY THIS. MY APOLOGIES) "One of the keys to gybing successfully is to enter the turn at top speed, fully powered up. This can only be achieved with the straps in an outboard position. Also, having the straps (and consequently your foot) out on the rail gives more control over the pitch of the board as you carve through the turn."

Which is not true. I posted a video clip that demonstrates basic jibing on flat water. It's not dramatic, it's not a hero jibe, it's not a brag clip. I've posted it before to demonstrate how undramatic the sail flip can be a jibe. The footstraps are inside. As mentioned previously, I have my straps inside on all my boards, I plane through my jibes on all my boards and go fast on all my boards in violation of your statement about what can only be achieved with outboard straps. The only video clip I have of me jibing the 70 cm board is a duck jibe, which I'm including because not only am I not going like a bat out of hell, but the duck jibe requires particularly good control of the pitch of the board through the feet, as the boom is not in hand for two seconds.

https://youtu.be/IoU6tAhWiFY

Nobody recommends moving the footstraps to the outside while learning duck jibes, because it actually makes the board angle harder to control.

swchandler wrote:
what wave sailors and swell riders say about footstrap positions really has nothing to do with the topic, because none of them would be riding a four strap 114 liter Futura in the waves or swells.


I ride my 70 cm board in flatwater conditions all the time, where it is a jibing machine...it loves sitting on a rail and carving. Easiest duck jibing board ever made IMHO (See the video clip). And a great step jiber, which will carve turns of any diameter. With the foot straps inside, too.

Do you do any teaching, swchandler? I do some...occasionally with ABK, sometimes solo, sometimes with the local shop. The beginning gear set up even for advanced sailors is to have things under control, so the student can selectively push specific parameters and start to develop and groove new skills. As the OP Mamero wrote "I am asking what approach to the footstraps is going to promote and accelerate my general progress."

If you're all about touting the upside of straps in the outside position, as a goal to aim at for those interested in absolutely max speed (at the expense of some control)...which is certainly fun and as I've mentioned it's something I do on big gear in light wind at resorts...then do so. But Mamero has said he's working on planing jibes. He's at 40% waterstarts on his more difficult tack. Outside strap position is not the call for him at this time.

swchandler wrote:
Sounds to me like you're a wannabe wave sailor.


You've got that right! If I get ten sessions in the waves in a year that's a good year. And I'm not very good at it. But I have a great time!

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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com


Last edited by PeconicPuffin on Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 8419

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry dude, you are incorrectly quoting me as saying the following:

"One of the keys to gybing successfully is to enter the turn at top speed, fully powered up. This can only be achieved with the straps in an outboard position. Also, having the straps (and consequently your foot) out on the rail gives more control over the pitch of the board as you carve through the turn."

Regarding duck jibes, I've never commented about that maneuver, so I'm at a total loss on how you've tripped out on that.

Regarding lessons, I've never invested in that game. Believe it or not, some of us have been able to easily figure things out on our own. Yet, as I recollect, you've been a real booster and whore for ABK camps. Why don't you fill us in how much you've spent with ABK trying to learn how to windsurf. I'm thinking that you're in four figure territory by now, but I have to doubt what you've really learned anything based on your comments.

Regarding using outboard straps, you're totally clueless. It's laughable that you have such a bizarre and an arguably incorrect view of using them. The idea that designers and manufacturers build production boards where outboard straps are unusable for anyone but experts is a pantload. I can't believe that you're barking that kind of nonsense here.

The reason that I've been highly critical of your posts on this topic is the fact that you're so wrong in what you're promoting. Inboard strap positions on wider higher volume boards limits performance, except for those with with bigger than average foot sizes. As I've said before, I can only hope that mamero will take a chance and steps up to the practical opportunities and potential offered on the 114 liter Futura. I hope that he sees beyond the limits that you're foolishly trying so hard to promote. Not everyone wants an anchor around their neck looking into the future.

Lastly, I've been windsurfing for better than 32 years, and before getting into windsurfing, I was a dedicated surfer for over 23 years. No doubt, a lot of time focused on what the beach can offer. Needless to say, a sound and credible basis to offer an opinion.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1597

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Sorry dude, you are incorrectly quoting me


Damn, you are right. That was bred2shred. Sorry about that (will go back and correct).

swchandler wrote:
Regarding duck jibes, I've never commented about that maneuver, so I'm at a total loss on how you've tripped out on that.


It's to demonstrate planing control with foot straps inside.

swchandler wrote:
you've been a real booster and whore for ABK camps. Why don't you fill us in how much you've spent with ABK trying to learn how to windsurf. I'm thinking that you're in four figure territory by now, but I have to doubt what you've really learned anything based on your comments.


A whore! Aren't you a nice guy. It is true that I am a vocal advocate for ABK as a great way for people to accelerate their learning. To answer your question: I first tried to learn with ABK in 1998, I first taught* with ABK (while still trying to learn to windsurf) in 2007, and I'm still trying to learn freestyle moves with them now. The last move I learned was the planing upwind 360. The move I'm struggling to learn (but am getting closer) is the planing duck tack. There are guys in ABK clinics who duck the sail to backwinded while on a full plane, then throw a backwinded forward loop. I doubt I'll ever progress that far, but it's exciting to know how much there is available to learn in windsurfing.

What was the last skill you learned?

swchandler wrote:
Regarding using outboard straps, you're totally clueless. It's laughable that you have such a bizarre and an arguably incorrect view of using them. The idea that designers and manufacturers build production boards where outboard straps are unusable for anyone but experts is a pantload. I can't believe that you're barking that kind of nonsense here.


Woof woof, if by "expert" you mean someone who can plane through a decent percentage of their jibes. The OP talked about wanting to progress. Woof woof.

swchandler wrote:
I've been windsurfing for better than 32 years, and before getting into windsurfing, I was a dedicated surfer for over 23 years. No doubt, a lot of time focused on what the beach can offer. Needless to say, a sound and credible basis to offer an opinion.


Yes well how long has Iso been sailing, and he still advocates BFF** (though he did nail the answer to the OP IMHO when he wrote "IMO, anyone having to ask this question should be mounting his straps inboard, because that demands much less technical expertise. One learns to drive better and more quickly in a Camry than in an Indy racer. "

Years can just as easily anchor you to the past as confer wisdom. We're going to have to agree to disagree at this point.

*I rarely teach with ABK...1-3 times a year max. I don't claim to represent ABK's instructors. I am a fan of their instructors, and honored that on occasion I am asked to help.

**Iso I'm not trying to open that can of worms. As I said, I think your original answer was spot on.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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mamero



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 229
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Checking in on this thread. I've been overseas behind the Great Firewall of China. I'm happy to see the topic has opened up to more thought and debate.
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mamero



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 229
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bred2shred wrote:
PeconicPuffin wrote:
mamero wrote:
I am also asking what approach to the footstraps is going to promote and accelerate my general progress.


Inboard.

Everything is easier to learn with the foot straps inboard.

Even with advanced skills, jibing/jumping/rough water/wave play are all better done with foot straps inboard.


.... a broad generalization that may or may not apply to the OP.

One of the keys to gybing successfully is to enter the turn at top speed, fully powered up. This can only be achieved with the straps in an outboard position. Also, having the straps (and consequently your foot) out on the rail gives more control over the pitch of the board as you carve through the turn. Similarly, with jumping, being out on the rail provides more speed and power for boosting off of ramps. Sailing slow on a board that wants to go fast is not going to improve your skills.

In the end, it all depends on the sailor and what they are trying to achieve. Experiment and don't be afraid to take a break to make adjustments.

sm


I have realized how important gybe entry speed is. Gybe entries are what I have started to work on first as I feel they are probably about 70% of what makes up a successful carve gybe (I could be wrong though). Where I usually sail in the summer in typical conditions with my previous board/sail combo (121 Carve / 7.5 Retro) I estimate I might get 5-10mins/per hour of adequate wind. By that I mean solid wind that you can really wind up on and execute a full out gybe entry with potential to fully carve through the gybe. That's not a lot of time per hour nor many opportunities in a session. I am hoping my new Futura will give me more opportunities per hour to work on my gybe entries. Last summer I began working on gybe entries. I've been practicing unhooking while still in the straps going full out. Practicing baring off unhooked flat out but, rather than continuing through the gybe, I would carve back up wind. At my progression in Carve gybes the more entry speed I can regularly get, predictably get, and maintain, the better.
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mamero



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Posts: 229
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Also, you have to remember that mamero does have a smaller three strap 90+ liter FSW board for higher B&J wind conditions.


Correct... When the wind starts to pick up enough where I need to consider dropping to around 6.0 or below, the chop and swell also usually start to increase. At this point my Starboard Kode FSW 94L will take over. It can handle up to a 6.5. I'm still getting used to this board too though although I am starting to get a bit better with it. The Kode FSW is setup up with 3 straps in and forward.
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1597

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mamero wrote:


I have realized how important gybe entry speed is. Gybe entries are what I have started to work on first as I feel they are probably about 70% of what makes up a successful carve gybe (I could be wrong though)


You're not wrong, you're spot on. Planing through a jibe is all about entering with good speed, and not losing too much speed during the turn. Meticulous set up (unhooking without disturbing board or sail, being able to sail lit while unhooked) saves you from losing 1-3 mph before initiaing the carve. Bearing off before repositioning your back foot (when possible in moderate and lighter conditions) does the same. Everything you can do to not LOSE speed is key. If we don't have a smooth efficient entry there's no way to make up the lost speed.

If you think of all the jibe variations that can be planed through (step jibe, duck jibe, switchstance jibe, donkey jibe, pirouette jibe, backwinded jibe etc) you can vary the foot and hand work many, many ways and still plane through. Enter with speed, don't lose too much during the transition.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com
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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 4432

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Lastly, I've been windsurfing for better than 32 years, and before getting into windsurfing, I was a dedicated surfer for over 23 years. No doubt, a lot of time focused on what the beach can offer. Needless to say, a sound and credible basis to offer an opinion.

Agreed. Your time on the water does give your opinions credibility. However, I would have thought that your 60+ years on the planet would have given you the ability to accept a differing opinion from someone who also clearly has credibility on the topic, without referring to him a whore or clueless. There are few hard and fast rules in windsurfing. Figure out what works for you, watch others who do it better to see where you might improve, and get instruction if that helps. It seems to me that is what PP has been doing by routinely attempting to broaden his skills. I generally have my footstraps on the outside, but, having read PPs posts, I plan to try putting them further in to see how that goes. That's what this forum is supposed to be about.
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