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I need a sail for Wind Foil Surfing in light winds
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Wind-NC.com



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 957
Location: Formerly Cape Hatteras, now Burlington, VT!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brynkaufman2 wrote:
I have the Flyer and just tried to rig it on a Chinook 430 RDM mast IMCS 21.

It is too tight around the cams and won't rotate. There is no slack at all in that area of the sail.

This is my first cammed sail so I am not sure if I did something wrong but it seems very straight forward. The cams stayed on the mast, the pockets are zipped up.

I will work with my local dealer to see what is going on and update this thread once we figure it out.


Cammed sails take a bit of extra work to set up the first time, but once you have it tuned you'll be good to go and future rigging will be easy and quick. Pop open those cam zippers, pull off the cams, and play with the thickness of the little white shims that are behind the cam to adjust the tension of the cam on the mast. To make it looser and easier, pull the shims out. To make it a tighter fit, add more shims.

Here's what those shims probably look like:

https://shop.wind-nc.com/collections/windsurfing-sails/products/camber-shims-windsurf-sail-part

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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2618

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brynkaufman2 wrote:
It is too tight around the cams and won't rotate. There is no slack at all in that area of the sail.


Welcome to the joys of a cambered sail which is why I hate them for extremely light winds. Even well tuned cam sails have difficulty rotating if there is not enough wind. After you finish trimming your cams you will have to learn how to give the sail a quick, short pop to get the cams to rotate or just physically push them over.

Coachg
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 377
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I have it working.

It was a combination of my putting too much tension on the battens and having no wind in the sail when I was testing the rotation.

As mentioned, it was my first cam sail and once I got help from an experienced cam sail friend things came together.

Just some tips for anyone getting the Flyer and also not experienced with cams. At first when we rotated it a lot of times the bottom batten would not rotate on the first try. After we let some tension out of the batten that problem disappeared.

My first rigging as I normally do was in my yard and there was no wind at all. Having wind in the sail definitely helps the rotation, and I learned how to give it that snap so it rotates every time now without an issue.

I went out today and it was averaging 8 mph and gusting only to 10 mph and that was not enough. I did not expect to be going. I hope to still go at the 12 to 13 mph gusts and higher, and I did feel a lot of power the one time it gusted up to 11 mph.

I also noticed my light wind cruising speed was a lot faster, which is nice if the wind drops and I have to get back to the beach from down wind.

Despite the light wind it rotated for me every time without an issue.

One other tip is it is tight as the rigging instructions mention, especially the first time. I used the down haul pulley to get the mast the final 2 feet. It just made things much easier.

I also found popping it out of the cams before pulling the mast out makes a huge difference. The first time getting the mast out I was very difficult, but once I pop it out of the cams, it slides out with almost no resistance.

I am still not sure if I have the battens at the right tension but things seem to be working.

I don't see any shims in the batten and I think it comes without any by default. It does include shims and the bag but we tried two different masts in the sail and both were tight, so my guess is most won't need those shims.

I will update again when I get to use the sail again.
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joethewindsufa



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1010
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh oh brynkaufman
you r discouraging me Sad
you are a heavyweight with a SW 7.0 foiling sail and not expecting it to work until 12 mph ??
that's when i start longboarding
which means no need to look at foiling for the big boys ??
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 749
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

joethewindsufa wrote:
oh oh brynkaufman
you r discouraging me Sad
you are a heavyweight with a SW 7.0 foiling sail and not expecting it to work until 12 mph ??
that's when i start longboarding
which means no need to look at foiling for the big boys ??


He isn't a heavyweight... he is a lighter weight guy.
And yes with his skill, I expect he will get flying in 12 mph wind... it will probably take very good pumping. And once flying, he will probably stay air born in wind down to 9-10 stuff, cause the foil is so efficient. This will be lots of fun in only 10-14 mph wind.

And Joe, there isn't anyone who has said that windfoiling is for lighter wind than longboarding... where did you get that Smile
Of course not.
You can longboard in 1 mph wind (not saying you would, just saying that it's possible).

The realistic advice I've learned in the last year, is, that windfoiling (flying) can begin for most people (lightweight to heavyweight) in the 10-20 mph wind range.
In other words, windfoiling gets most people up flying in about the same wind as if they were going out planing on a formula board (10-20). The difference is, you are foiling with a 7-9m sail, and you are on formula with a 9-11m sail.

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Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84


Last edited by gregnw44 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 749
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryn, Congrats on your new sail !!
I'll be interested to hear about your experiences as you get more time with it.
I hadn't checked in here for a few days... glad that you got good help to figure it out.
I've been using cammed sails since 1987... and I love them for lighter wind / bigger sail situations! And yes, for windfoiling in respectively lighter wind (light pressure as Bruce says) situations, I think they make a lot of sense.
Yes there is a little "pop", that you do, to rotate the sail. And if you do it right, you don't need any wind to help you... and I found this easy with the Flyer.

Batten tension - You don't need to over tighten those (on any sail). The Sailworks instructions have some info about this. And that's nothing new for you.. since you have other RAF sails that are the same.
There are certain reasons pros or experts might over tighten the lower battens.. but the rest of us, should only tighten to "just barely" get the slight wrinkles out of the batten pocket (don't worry about big soft wrinkles in the body of the sail). This should be the same for all your sails, the Flyer is no different. Sails will last longer this way. And will maybe rotate a little easier, in some cases.

Cam shims= luff sleeve tension= stickier rotation - So, just to be sure... before rigging the sail next time, while it's laying there flat.. unzip the cam zips... and examine each cam, then pull them off (note how they slide back on). Anyway, double check there are no shims between the cam and the sail body. Look at the shims you have in your sail bag, so you know what you're looking for (since you haven't had cammed sails before).
As long as there's no shims installed in the sail making the cam too tight... you should have nice easy rotation (as long as you do a little pop).

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Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84


Last edited by gregnw44 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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joethewindsufa



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1010
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregnw44 wrote:

Windfoiling gets most people up flying in about the same wind as if they were going out on a formula board (10-20). The difference is, you are foiling with a 7-9m sail, and you are on formula with a 9-11m sail.


thanks dr greg - will stick with longboarding and wide freeride
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 377
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greg, thanks for those tips. I was trying to get the big soft wrinkles in the sail out by over tightening the battens.

So you are saying I only have to look at wrinkles in the batten pocket, I did not realize that.

I will double check the cams before rigging to see if there is a shim in there, good idea. Although at this point if there is I might just keep it, because it really is rotating well so I think it is OK now.

I also noticed more down haul removes some of those big soft wrinkles, so I am considering down hauling all the way on my 30 cm extension.
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Brian_S



Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 215
Location: SE Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryn,
Give Sailworks a call - they're great about helping on the phone. I don't have that sail, but I suspect that the larger wrinkles are only supposed to clear with wind in the sail, and you only use batten tension to clear the small wrinkles around the batten pockets - at least that's the way it was on my older cammed sails. Give 'em a call.

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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 377
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joe, just to be clear it is not 12 mph average, it is gusting at 12 mph. The average is under 10 mph. I have not done this yet, but that is my target with this sail.

Right now the Naish 5.7 Lift sail takes me down to gusting at 15 mph, so probably an average of 11 to 12 mph.

It is of course your decision to foil or not, but I would highly encourage anyone thinking about it to try it.

I have become very addicted to it and am not doing anything but foiling now. I am selling my Kona CarbOne which is a fantastic long board.

I am running much smaller sails. As I mentioned my friend was comfortable on his 8.5 Ezzy Lion while I was comfortable on my 4.7 Superfreak. That never would happen without a foil.

My upwind angle on the foil is great, and if you have any swells in your area you are in for an amazing treat when riding them with a foil. That is my favorite thing to do on the foil.

Foiling is easier on the knees, no banging on the chop.

I needed 12 mph something average to get going on my Kona CarbOne, so now I am bringing it down lower than I could do on the CarbOne. However, at a certain point, the wind is just too light. I don't want to run an 8.0+ sail on a foil.

Also, once up on the foil, you can really get going in that light wind, where with the long board you will be planing but kind of a slower planing.

If you take a formula board and a 11.0 sail out you will go in lighter wind than foiling, but I think many agree being up on the foil is more fun.
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