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I need a sail for Wind Foil Surfing in light winds
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sailworksman



Joined: 26 Jul 2000
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryan, the FLYER sails are purpose built with a unique combination of shape, tension and geometric features optimized for foiling. The 7.0 Flyer is the largest size in the quiver and is intended for foiling in wind speeds from 8-15 knots. Its lighter, lower aspect, less induced leech twist, and much lower rig tension that a typical 7.0 slalom/race sail. When used with a powerful foil (like LP, AFS or Starboard) you can expect foil lift-off under 10 knots, and sustained foiling in wind less than that. The 7.0 Flyer is a tractor. It has exceptionally whippy pumping action to create momentum for initial foil engagement. The narrow sleeve, twin-cam profile keeps the leading edge articulated and the sail driving, even in light winds and low load foiling conditions. The cambered profile further benefits foil control by calming the sail pressure and pitch oscillations that camless rigs will induce on the foil.

Performance-wise the 7.0 Flyer on a foil is comparable to a 8.5~9.5 Slalom/Race sail on fast slalom board. I'm 200 lbs and ride 120 liter boards for foiling. I raced and won a light wind Gorge Cup race series last summer using the 7.0 Flyer, with similar straight line board speed to the slalom racers, and a crushing advantage at the marks when I could stay on the foil through my jibes. I've found if the slalom guys can plane around on their 8 to 9 meter-plus sails, even 50% of the time, then I can be foiling continuously on the 7.0 Flyer. Dale Cook doesn't even have a 7.0, and doesn't miss any light wind foiling time with just a 6.0 Flyer.

Recognize that there are lots of contributing factors to any light wind foil performance claims, the sail being just one element. Some important contributors are a powerful, stiff foil with the stabilizer angle properly set for power (vs. speed), a floaty enough board that you aren't wasting any sail pressure bringing your board to the surface, and some skill and initiative to create initial momentum with some harmony of sail and foil pumping.

/Bruce
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 742
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: I need a sail for Wind Foil Surfing in light winds Reply with quote

brynkaufman2 wrote:
I purchased the Naish Lift sail for my Wind Foil Surfing, and it is incredible. It is super light, luffs easily, and has incredible power to get on the foil for its size.
The problem is I need a bigger sail than their 5.7 when the wind is light.
When the wind is gusting 13 knots or higher the Naish Lift 5.7 works great, but when gusting under 13 knots I can't get going.

Keep in mind this the gust speed, not the average wind speed, I only pay attention to the gusts because that is how I get going and once up I can always keep going. For those that track average speeds it is normally around 10 knots average when gusting to 13 knots.
So I need an under 10 knot Wind Foil Sail.

I like to do Wind Foil Surfing, not Wind Foil blasting. So I need a sail that disappears when riding a swell, and only comes into use when I need a little boost of speed to catch the next swell or to keep going.
This is why the big 8.0 cambered foil sails are not so attractive for me. They are not small wave sails, and they are a big jump from my Lift 5.7.
The Lift works well I believe because they are all Dacron so super light. It is hard to tell from the photo https://www.naishsails.com/product/Lift/ but the batten above the boom is a 1/2 batten.
I believe that half batten along with the additional sail below the boom is what gives the Lift the great power for the size and weight.
In addition the half batten gives the sail a very soft feel so you do not get pulled around as much on the foil even though there are no cambers.

I can't find any other sail like the Lift. The Superfreak is my sail of choice for a 4.7, and that works well because it has some of the same things such as Dacron, and 90% battens.
However, the Superfreak does not have enough light wind pull. I tried out the 7.0 Superfreak and it was not enough. I could probably use an 8.0 Superfreak and although it is light for an 8.0 sail, it is still a really large sail.

Just FYI my board is the JP 155 foil board and my foil is the Naish Thrust WS. My weight is 155 lbs.
Any suggestions? I really want to ride the swells in under 10 knots without going to a 7.5 to 8.0 sail.


Yeah, I think the 7m Flyer would be just what you're looking for.
With your lighter weight, and that cool JP foil board, and that "low speed flying" Thrust Foil... I would think you'd be up on the wing much faster than anyone!!

How's your pumping??
Can you pump a sail like an Olympic racer or a formula sailor (or Robby Naish)? Cause that will be important to work on, to get flying in the wind you're talking about.
Anyway, a 7m Flyer will certainly get you up faster than the 5.7 Lift, or a 7m Superfreak... pumping or not.

I would try to define your wind speed better.
Is it fair to say, that you can get the 5.7 Lift up on the wing in 10-15 knots, averaging 13? (12-17 mph, avg 15, scattered caps)
And you're hoping to get a sail that you can pump up on the wing in 8-12 knots, averaging 10? (9-14 mph, avg 12, widely scattered caps)
Cause for you, I "think" this is attainable with the Flyer (but Bruce would give you the straight scoop, for you and your gear).

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Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2590

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Flyer may be an option but I'm guessing you are trying to emulate this.

https://vimeo.com/243522731

The Flyer has cams & is designed to keep it's shape when there is very little pressure in the sail. That means when you are riding the swell & hanging on to the mast the sail will not luff. The degree the sail doesn't luff may or may not be enough. Time will tell as this is a whole new field.

Coachg
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 742
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, time will tell.
That's a very cool vid... we've talked about it before... and yes, very likely what he wants to do on Oahu's north shore Smile

But as we know... gliding along like that, going one direction... and relatively slow speed, with little wind pressure... he could easily hold onto the boom with one hand and luff a cammed sail... just like that. With the apparent wind, doing this, in this direction.. the sail would be invisible, cam or no cam.
I've done that teaching lessons from my longboard (with a cammed race sail rigged on my board)... gliding along on a reach, talking to a student close by... light wind barely any wind pressure... holding onto a 4 cam race sail with one hand... no pressure, gliding in one direction and talking to the student 30' away.

Sheet in when you want power, and drive and lift. Sheet out, and luff the sail with no power... when you want to coast along.

Of course, a high tension modern 4 cam race sail would not be fun for wave sailing... cause they're heavy and stiff... and they wouldn't let you do tight maneuvers, with constant directional changes. And they'd always be in a powerful shape, wouldn't rotate easy, etc. Yeah, that'd be very bad.

But the Flyers and windfoiling for free-riding and small waves... and just cruising around... seem like a perfect design for many people. Super easy rotation... just rotate the sail and the cams flip, no popping or pumping Smile

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Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 345
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bruce for the very detailed response. I am going to buy the Flyer 7.0.

I really like this quote:

"I've found if the slalom guys can plane around on the 8 to 9 meter-plus sails, even 50% of the time, then I can be foiling continuously on the 7.0 Flyer."

That is the wind I was in yesterday. A guy on his 8.5 was going about 70% of the time. I was on the Naish Lift 5.7 and going about 60% of the time. I believe if I had the Flyer 7.0 I could get that up to 100% of the time, which would be great.

Coachg, that is exactly what I like to do and Casey is one of the reasons I bought the Naish Lift. I also bought the same Go Foil Casey is using so I could do the same, but later on changed to the Naish WS foil and that was much better for my needs.

Greg, I agree with you about luffing. While it won't luff as flat as the Lift, I think I can still luff it enough to have fun on the wave. The bottom line is if I am up on the foil riding the swell I will figure out how to depower the sail enough to have fun. They key is that I am up on the foil.

I think my pumping skills are getting better. I can sense the wind gust, give the Lift one pump to get going, slip my foot into the rear strap, give one more pump and I am up. I did a lot of research on pumping technique to make sure it was not my pumping that was holding me back.

Bruce, my board is floaty, maybe too much so as it is the JP 155 foil board. I like it though, very stable, always bounces back up when it hits the water, great for carving turns in the air on a swell. I am able to bring it down on the rail on purpose when going against a swell to get myself wet to cool off and then go right back up on the foil.

I do have a concern that a smaller board would rise up sooner, but I hope I can overcome this with the Flyer 7.0 sail as I really like the width of this board and I have not mastered the foiling jibe yet so going with a smaller board will not make that any easier.

I do have the Naish Foil set for maximum lift. It is not a high speed foil, and my goal was always to ride swells with no sail power so I knew maximum lift would be my best setting.

Greg, my cut off with the Lift 5.7 is gusting at 15 mph. If it is gusting 15 mph or over I am good on the lift. If it drops and is gusting to 10 mph to 13 mph I do not have enough energy in the sail, even with pumping.

Hopefully the Flyer 7.0 will get me going in 12 mph to 13 mph gusts, but if it picks up to say 18 mph or 20 mph gusts I will still be OK. I also hope it will be light enough to enjoy riding the swell when it is luffed out.

In the upper wind range I tend to be OK because I am used to riding with a sail luffed out and just grabbing tiny bits of power as needed.

Greg, thanks for turning me onto the Sailworks Flyer, I heard about it before, but really did not understand it until Bruce explained it.
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rtz



Joined: 31 Oct 2010
Posts: 154
Location: Oklahoma City

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good video for motivation and inspiration:

https://youtu.be/YjEDlyBMAGc
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 345
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rtz, it was that video that inspired me to buy the Naish WS Foil and I am very happy with it.

It also makes me wonder if my larger 155 board is harder to get going than the Naish foil board as that is a very small sail in very light wind he is using.

Initially I thought the bigger board might be easier, as it does not sink into the water as much, but now I think the pushing of more water, especially when it is choppy, might slow my board down a bit.

When the wind is marginal I can't get going against the swells, but I can get foiling with the swells. This is because I can catch a gust and even a tiny 1" swell at the same time so the board is not pushing water and that makes a big difference.

Robby has skills I don't have but even Robby needs the right equipment.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 742
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah Bryan, I think you're gonna really like the Flyer 7M... and will be watching for your assessments after you get a number of light wind days with it.

And I agree with all the well-written points you make!

The Flyer 7m won't be as light as your 5.7 Lift... but it is very light for a 7m sail.
From the Sailworks website -
7.0 NX 4 cam race sail 11.44 lbs.
7.0 Retro 0 cam freeride sail 10.34 lbs.
6.6 Hucker 0 cam freeride sail 9.46 lbs.
6.2 Revo 0 cam wave sail 8.69 lbs.
7.0 Flyer 2 cam foil sail 8.14 lbs.
5.4 Gyro 0 cam wave sail 7.92 lbs.
Obviously sail designs like wave sails aren't going to have cams. But cams add weight... so I included which sail have cams, for a better "apples to apples" comparison. This shows the very expensive and light materials used in the Flyer sail... compared to high tension and heavy duty materials used in other sail designs.

And regarding pumping... it is a very important skill, to optimize light wind foiling. These vids are "so cool"... but don't underestimate the skill these pros like Bruce, Dale, and Eddy have... and add even more of that, for the legend Robby. These guys can sail almost anything, and magically make it look easy (fitness, experience, skill, efficiency, plus magic). Anyway for us mortals... we will not match what they're doing Smile
That being said, however, I think adding the 7m Flyer to your foil quiver will be a great addition. At your weight... and with your gear... and wind... there's no question you will be up flying in less wind, than with your 5.7 Lift.
And after you get up on the wing... it'll just be lots of practice to gain the skills to do all the maneuvers you want.

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Longboarding since '81
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 742
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS - The Flyer is easy and fast to rig... but be sure to read the website and the instructions it'll come with. If you have any questions, or it seems difficult... ask first. Don't mess anything up.

This 2 cam sail doesn't have zippers in the luff sleeve, at the cam location. Personally, I like zips in cammed sail cause it makes rigging way easier / faster.
But the Flyer doesn't need them, cause the luff curve is straighter than most all contemporary sails. So by leaving the zips out of the design, you save a little weight and cost.
Therefore to rig a Flyer, you slide the mast in the luff sleeve, and as you get to each cam, you slide the mast into it, then continue easing the sail down the mast. It's pretty easy and quick, and the cams don't pop off during rigging cause of the tighter luff sleeve. All in all, a great design for fast, easy and efficient windfoiling.

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Greg
Longboarding since '81
Shortboarding since '84
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 345
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Greg, good advice. I am exited to try it.

I have a foiling buddy who has a lot of good things to say about cammed sails for foiling. I also see all foil sails other than the Lift are using cams, so I realized it is time to try a cammed sail, and the power of the Flyer sounds like what I need.
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