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I need a sail for Wind Foil Surfing in light winds
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 335
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great day today on the Flyer 7.0. Rigged it for light wind and the wind ended up being medium with gusts going up to about 18 mph. Never felt out of control and was never under powered.

Rode some nice swells and I was able to flag it out to where it was just the swell pushing me for some really long rides.

It is not as light to hold as a smaller dacron sail with no cams, but the power feels more controlled and more steady when you do need a bit of power to catch the next swell.

I am 155 lbs and had no problem running with it unhooked all the time when going downwind today. Spent 1 hour and 20 minutes on the water and was then reasonably tired.

It seems I will be using this sail a lot, probably more then anything else, as it has that range from the lightest of wind up to 18 to 20 mph gusts, which is typical for where I sail.

If I know it is going to gust over 20 I would use my 4.7 Superfreak which goes in gusts from about 18 mph to 25 mph for me.

From gusts 23 mph to 30 mph I use my Superfreak 3.5, but I get blown around a lot at the upper end of that range unless I am flagging the sail to ride the swell.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3788
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.
At 162 lbs., I use 7.0 from 15 to 20 mph, slalom, and at 20 to 29 mph, use 4.5 Superfreak with a 84 liter board.
But I do see the gain in foils for sub 15 mph breezes.
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 335
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zirtaeb, just in case I want to mention again I am talking about maximum gusts, not average. For example, if it is gusting 15 mph the average here is around 11 mph.

I know I am confusing things talking about gusts but it is the gust that gets me up on the foil so I focus more on the gust vs. the average. Once up it is easy to keep going even through the lulls.

Also, not sure where you sail but I believe flatter water is easier to get going because you are not pushing uphill against large chop.

I am also thinking all wind is not the same. For example, when gusting to 15 mph some might have an average of 11 mph, but some might have higher, so there are not the same lulls. I have seen it here where the average is even lower yet still gusting to 15 mph, so it depends on the day sometimes too.

My guess is no matter where you sail you will go down at least 1 whole sail size. Here I used to sail the Ezzy Zephyr 7.5 which has the boom length of an 8. That was my most used sail in most conditions. Now I will be sailing the Flyer 7.0 and I am getting a 6.0 Flyer too.

My guess is there will be many days where I will be doing great on the 6.0 where I would normally be using the 8.0 sized sail.

Also, I never had a smaller sail than 5.5 here. I never felt the need for it. Now I go a lot on the 4.7 and as mentioned I even have good days on a 3.5.

So in many cases I am down two full sail sizes from where I would normally be, but to play it safe I think you can expect at least 1 whole sail size smaller.

Regardless of the riders weight I see the same thing here with others, they are down about 1 full sail size and they are also going in lighter winds so getting much more time on the water.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryn... good report with some helpful info... thanks!

But one thing - you use the phrase "up or down one sail size" a lot.
Can you define what you mean by that?
Here's why -
There is no standardization, as far as I know, for what constitutes "sail size" spacing. And there are a million different reasons why one of us, would pick the sail spacing we have in our quiver. And a million reason why a sail maker would pick certain size spacing. And... what size the company makes, is not always what size spacing they expect people will buy. Most brands offer way more sizes, than they expect people will buy. But they want people to have a good choice, for their weight and their typical wind... so they offer more sizes.

So, if you say go up or down one size, that means 100 different things to 100 different sailors.

These days I have 12 sails between 5.5 and 7.0 which is crazy, cause it's not needed... but I've just collected them over the years. And I'm buying and selling them... and I use some for teaching, etc.
So if you tell me to go down one size, that's not very much.
But back in the day, I went straight from a 5.5 to a 7m with no sails in between. So if you tell me to go down one size, it would be bigger, haha!

Conclusion - It's much more clear and helpful (at least for me) to say exactly what you're doing. "I would use a 7.5 free-riding on these conditions... now I'm using a 5.0 foiling in the same conditions."
Thanks Smile

PS - I know that now, you might be talking about specific Flyer sail spacing. But not everyone knows what that is. So it's way easier to just say what size you're talking about.

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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 335
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Greg,

When I said a sail size I meant from a 7 to a 6. My thinking was going from a 7 to a 6.5 would be a 1/2 size, but what you are saying makes sense as there is no standard.

So when I went from a 5.5 to a 3.5 I considered it two full sizes down.

By the way, I took my Flyer 7.0 out in conditions where I knew it would be more sail than I needed just to see how it would go. I have the 6.0 on order but I wanted to understand the range of the 7.0.

So it was gusting to 18 mph and I had way too much power. Instead of pumping to get on the foil I had to let the air out of the sail, otherwise the push was too much. I sailed pretty good with it sheeted out almost all the way, and it also was fun on the swells.

I feel like I learned something from that experience. In my opinion having a stable sail is one of the most important factors. Even though the sail was heavier than my Naish Lift sail, it was still more fun even being over powered because it was more stable in those conditions. I assume the stability with the Flyer is from the cams and the design of the sail.

The Flyer is not a heavy sail, and that combination of a stable sail along with one that is not too heavy is really nice.

When riding out against the swells the stability makes it a nice easy ride.

When riding a swell in and flagging the sail out it is nice to have a smooth power delivery when you need it.

Sometimes the swell stops so you have to pull the back of the sail to generate some power to catch the next swell. Having a very controlled source of power makes it easier. If the sail starts giving you challenges when you need that extra power it makes it more difficult.

So I learned that weight is not the most important factor for me in a sail. Stability without adding too much weight is more important.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great review and Sailworks Flyer info!
Yes, I've liked sails that are easy rigging and light weight and have cams, since the late 80's. (Most sails with cams since about 2000, don't meet those qualities.)
I wish Sailworks would make a 8.5 and 10m Flyer (yes, they'd have 1 or 2 more battens and 1 more cam). They could all be used for foiling, at least the 8.5 would be a good windfoil sail for bigger guys trying to get flying in 10 mph breezes. But they would also be great light wind longboard sails.

And about this part -
< When I said a sail size I meant from a 7 to a 6. My thinking was going from a 7 to a 6.5 would be a 1/2 size, but what you are saying makes sense as there is no standard. So when I went from a 5.5 to a 3.5 I considered it two full sizes down. >

Yes right... there is nothing that equates "sail size spacing" to 1 M.
Therefore, better to just say what size sail you're talking about Smile
Thanks again -

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Longboarding since '81
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2527

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryn,

Flatter water is not always easier to get going on. The wind & swells are rarely parallel to each other so you usually only have to push uphill in one direction. On the opposite tack you get the benefit of gliding downhill so it easier to get going than in flat water.

Going from a 5.5 to a 3.5 is far more than a two sail size jump. That is closer to a four sail size jump for most sailors because the smaller the sail size, the greater the wind so the sail size spacing is much smaller than on the larger sail sizes for an equal percentage jump. The jump from 4.0 to 5.0 is far greater than from 6.0 to 7.0.

Many of us are looking at foils as light wind options without using the large sails as you are. If I need to throw a sail as large as 7 meters with cams on the foil to get going I'll stay with what I currently have. I do not expect to get going any earlier than I do now, but I do expect to be able to coast through lulls better. That is the draw for me, to be able to keep going through lulls.

On the higher end once the gusts get over 20 I will be on regular gear as well so putting a tiny sail on a foil doesn't make sense to me.

Coachg
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brynkaufman2



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 335
Location: Kailua Oahu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coach, good point.

Some days going with the wind and swells I could get up on the foil, but not going against them, so the direction does make a difference. Catching a gust and being at the top of even a small swell at the same time makes take off easy.

When I started foiling I figured I would also go back to regular gear when the wind was at the higher end. I tried that, but found I still preferred foiling.

What happened to me is I lost my touch with regular gear, it felt strange. Also when the wind is cranking the water is very choppy, and I liked flying above that chop. In addition I like riding swells, even very small ones, and again when the wind is cranking there are a lot of swells.

So I am selling my regular gear. That is probably the hardest part of foiling, having nice regular gear that I used to love using and not using it anymore.

Everyone is different, so some might keep using their regular gear, but I thought it would be worth mentioning that is what I thought I would do but ended up enjoying the foiling so much I just do that now.

Also, I would not judge foiling just on using smaller sails or going in lighter wind. Yes, those things are attractive, but once you get hooked on flying in the air the feeling is very addictive, just like when you first started planing in windsurfing.
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gregnw44



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sail power we all need to get up flying on a wing in light wind, will be different for everyone, cause each person will have different priorities, definitions, or goals, or hopes, haha!

Sailor weight... sailor fitness and skill for powerful pumping... board design to get up to 10 - 12 mph board speed... foil design... typical wind speed...
all these and more... and each persons definition of "light wind sailing" will dictate how much sail size and power are needed (don't you think?)

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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 2527

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bryn,

It is great that you have fallen in love with foiling and I hope to enjoy it as well. But trust me, I will not be losing touch with my smaller high wind gear. That 5.5 that was your smallest sail that you rarely used would be your largest, rarely used sail over here. I'm sure the feeling of flying above the water on the foil is great but jumping or looping one of those things could be very dangerous. All I can envision is a large flying tomahawk. Yes, I have seen the pros do it but they do not have to pay for the equipment I'm sure they break.

Over here when the wind averages over 18 mph which is very common, people on foils are limited to upwind/downwind. There is just so much more to do with an 85-100 liter board, 5.0 & under sail and a sub 22 cm fin.

Coachg
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