myiW Current Conditions and Forecasts Community Forums Buy and Sell Services
 
Hi guest · myAccount · Log in
 SearchSearch   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   RegisterRegister 
exiting power gybe with speed
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2242
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further to others' valuable observations, you must think about what this jibe used to be called: the Power Jibe. It was first called that because the planing jibe was a creature born of necessity. Way back in the age of dinosaurs, we struggled to jibe longboards when the wind increased. That problem didn't really end despite the arrival of planing hulls and remains a challenge for many today.

We need power and lots of it to fly out of a planing jibe which, I assume, must be your end goal. In that spirit I suggest the following which are in context with your video and the gear/conditions therein:

1. Jibe in the windy parts. Jibe in the gusts. A windy condition will keep your speed high as you enter your jibe. Done correctly, you may eventually head up and bleed speed as the first part of your jibe setup.

2. Unhook early, but not too soon. You must unhook under full power yet not wait to start your turn too long because you loose mast base pressure when sailing out of the lines for extended periods. One thing that can help modify this reaction is No. 3.

3. Reach back about one foot along the boom with your back hand before you unhook. This will achieve several things. First, you can pull down with your back hand as you unhook to help retain as much mast base pressure as you can. Second, the rig will naturally tip forward and to windward as you do unhook and this rig position is necessary to push the nose off the wind. (Many folks don't consider that our boards don't go from a beam reach to a board reach merely tipped onto a rail. Rather, the rig must push the board's nose off the wind. I realize this sounds like the physics behind a non-planing jibe and it actually is, to a limited degree. It's also the physics behind initiating a front loop.) Third, your rearward hand position provides additional several over the rig making it easier to control.

4. You exit the jibes in your video and seem to wait for the board to turn upwind in order to match the sail's angle after the flip. A few factors create this. Insufficient entry speed and lost board speed during the turn are shown. You loose speed by keeping weight on your back foot too long and seem to struggle with matching your hip rotation to the turn. This delay inevitably causes an inability to aggressively flip the rig so it catches the wind immediately. I suggest trying to delay your rig flip and sail clew first a few times. You should immediately feel the need to move your hips forward as you flip the sail lest the sail starts to lean to the tail. The mast should be nearly upright or a few degrees only aft during the sail flip. A lack of board speed also ensures that the new apparent wind will make sheeting in quite difficult, thus the delay and round-up.

5. After trying a few clew-first jibes, return to the standard step-jibe but jibe more tightly. A tighter jibe can actually make certain problems go away, such as a tendency to lean back or being lazy with your hands during the rig transition. A tight jibe forces your weight forward onto what I call the board's "hips", that point in the board's design where the maximum outline curve and a point just in front of the mast foot connect. You jibe on that with good technique and power and feel like everything is then predictable. You can make adjustments with foot pressure and hip movement and save many jibes that might otherwise put you in the water.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1697

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanWeiss wrote:

the rig will naturally tip forward and to windward as you do unhook and this rig position is necessary to push the nose off the wind.


The rig shouldn't move at all when you unhook. Not an inch. We unhook without yanking on the boom or moving it at all, hanging our weight down to maintain mast base pressure and full speed unhooked. THEN the rig can be moved subtly forward to initiate bearing off. Dasher covers this well in his video (and in live instruction.) Moving the rig while unhooking is the first way people lose speed as they prepare to jibe.

Do good planing jibers ever tilt the rig forward nearly immediately after unhooking? Sure. But that requires a level of finesse that comes from years of planing through and out of jibes. That's not where the OP is in his jibing career.

_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some different thoughts:
If you can sail clew first there is no hurry to flip the sail. Just sail off the wind clew first fully planing and flip at your leisure. Sailing clew first is not a fancy trick, it's an essential part of sailing.
Grab the boom with your new back hand at least as far back as where it is when you're sailing hooked in. Better too far back than too close. If it is too close and you sheet in you don't have the leverage to handle the power and get launched or overpowered. Or you waste time re-reaching (tenths of a second count as you're falling off a plane) . Most people don't grab far enough back because they can't reach that point because the rig is not pulled across to windward enough. Pull the rig forward and across the centerline with your new front hand far enough so that you do not have to move your upper body to grab the boom at the right place with your back hand. This is where the rig is perfectly balanced ready to be sheeted in and powered up.
Practice this sail flip technique on land in no wind. It's amazing how effortless it is. And to reiterate what Kevin said. a jibe is not 180 degrees, it's 120. On a clock if you start the jibe at 3 it should be done by 730.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just rewatched your video and noticed you are grabbing the mast when you flip the sail. No,no,no! Terrible habit! Even though it feels better you waste so much time getting your hands in the right position that you will almost always fall off a plane. Your entry looks fine, not perfect but no reason to stop you from planing out. You're flipping the rig at the right time but it is the hand work that is killing you. Reach under your front hand and grab the new side of the boom palm up. Pull the rig way across the centerline with the new front hand and grab way back on the boom with the back hand. Problem solved!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delay advice - kevin, coach, PP... thank you! big thank you!
the first delay comment - I was puzzled, but when I got it 3x in a row, and from the people I trust... I decided to try it . Good I did.

Yes it is very easy for me. On the beam reach or on the broad reach I can move the back hand back at will and press down on it - best Dasher's advice from his vid. Harness line falls down, rig doesn't budges an inch. The only thing I feel is increased pressure on both hands. I can be in this position forever if necessary. So three seconds or five, doesn't matter. Doing this completely consistently now.

Now I see - "why" (for me "why" is always more important than advice itself).

I see several reasons:

1. Dont put all eggs in one basket. Separate moves into different clusters. Allows to keep focus on one particular thing at a time. Even Cesar could do only seven things simultaneously. In this case not rushing the preparation and entry in one simultaneous move ensures hand back, unhooking without disturbing, and giving three seconds delay allow the mind to be ready for entry.

2. Riding for several seconds unhooked powers the sail. So we feel power in the sail, and feeling sail powered emphasizes this roll forward motion when due to oversheeting the power disappears. When all happens at once, it is more like a mess without those nuances that help to feel things.

3. additional bonus -If I want to abort after this delay - peace of cake, just hook in. Meaning, we also delaying point of no return.

I didn't have the cameraman so again what I think I am doing is probably is very different from what I am really doing. But I am pretty positive that I am doing this delay correctly. The turn was much faster and more reliable and with higher exit speed (although not enough)

Going forward.... Whats your advice guys?

I am not a big fan of Dasher (I watched it about 357 times and followed for 5 years). I think it is very good from the view point of dissecting the move but doing 16 seq steps should take 16 seconds or so... My biggest progress came from Guy Cribb from what he describes an Advanced jibe (on his site, not on his video, that I watched around 753 times) - the idea is to do seven things simultaneously to complete the entry.

I try to do simultaneously in a nick of a time:
- move center of gravity from windward low position into the turn, diagonally, towards the mast
- with front hand shove the mast forward (i.e. front fist goes with your body)
- back fist stays where it is, i.e. it doesn't move forward at all, i.e. body moves forward but back hand doesn't, so relative to the body the back hand comes to this chicken wing position to kinda scratch the ribs (isobars comparison)
- front knee is way more bent than the back one, which allows to move the center of mass even more forward
- back foot by the back strap and leg almost straight
- straight back
- chin up (well this is from Dasher)

This delay helped me to roll onto my front foot without ever rising the eyes above the boom level (before it was a stand up motion and then I was bringing eyes down. After. This time eyes never were above the booms).

Feet and knee I think I dialed. The only thing that I dont like is that because this fast rolling motion diagonally, center of mass from outside and back toward the front and over the center, I tend to bring my back foot a little bit forward, not touching the back strap.

Question: Perhaps after 3 sec delay (that I am a master at) I should take out the back foot, position on the centerline firmly against the back strap, wait another 2 seconds and only then roll? What do you think?

Biggest mistake I guess bad hand work. I think my front hand is bent and I am not sheeting with back one. Any trick you can share how to influence correct hand work? Or just to just concentrate? (I am bold, not blond)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1697

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alap wrote:

Question: Perhaps after 3 sec delay (that I am a master at) I should take out the back foot, position on the centerline firmly against the back strap, wait another 2 seconds and only then roll?


Repositioning the back foot so that when you weight it the board carves (on a smaller board that will be on the centerline, on a wider board it will be closer to the downwind rail)...the best time to do this depends on both conditions and how good you are. The advantage to doing it early is it removes one thing to think about, gives you time to pick the precise spot you want to initiate your carve at, and lets you make sure the board is planing as smoothly as possible. But in high winds or rocking chop, you're probably better off rolling right into the carve. Whatever you do, keep the board sailing smoothly and the sail fully powered.

alap wrote:
Biggest mistake I guess bad hand work. I think my front hand is bent and I am not sheeting with back one. Any trick you can share how to influence correct hand work? Or just to just concentrate? (I am bold, not blond)


Practicing the sail flip is something you can do on land, and on the water in nonplaning conditions. You need to make this automatic...if you're thinking about hand work while trying to plane through the jibe...that's tough. Nonplaning practice on the water of pivot jibes, duck jibes, tacks, helitacks etc pays off in planing conditions.

_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:


Practicing the sail flip is something you can do on land, and on the water in nonplaning conditions. You need to make this automatic...if you're thinking about hand work while trying to plane through the jibe...that's tough. Nonplaning practice on the water of pivot jibes, duck jibes, tacks, helitacks etc pays off in planing conditions.


I practice in the basement, broken mast and 140 boom on the old board. Carve jybe, duck jybe, fast tack and getting backwinding. Perfect handwork in the basemont.

In light wind I do pivot jybe and duck jybe (big board small sail for duck) on the water. Again boom to boom, easy, without thinking.

In the carve jybe especially with lost speed when it is not an exit but basically recovery (like in the vid) hand can only grab the mast. I am thinking may be I should step new front foot further...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
philodog



Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you're starting the sail flip pull the rig past vertical , to windward, with your old front hand. This will make it easier to reach under your front hand and grab the new side of the boom palm up. Then keep pulling it across with your new front hand until it is easy to reach far back on the boom with your back hand.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 3906
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best exit speed I've seen in 20 years is Avery's ducker at Bodega PO beach with a 5.5, RRD V series, in 22-33 mph wind last Sunday. He fully accelerated 10 mph finishing the sail flip.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
alap



Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my exit (flip) is not a problem at all. In those videos all speed is already lost. It is not an exit per se, but rather recovery, so not to fall.

I do think now that my main remaining problem is bad oversheeting (that what I meant by bad hand work), or more specifically I bend my front hand, I dont sheet enough with back hand and I dont incline the mast into winward. Sometimes instead of inclining the rig I incline the body inside the turn, but this opens the sail. I think that this is my weakest link now. If I resolve this I think my jibe will go snappier, faster , I wont loose that much speed... the flip when speed is there is very easy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    iWindsurf Community Forum Index -> Windsurfing Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You can attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum

myiW | Weather | Community | Membership | Support | Log in
like us on facebook
© Copyright 1999-2007 WeatherFlow, Inc Contact Us Ad Marketplace

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group