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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:27 am Post subject: |
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That jibe is fast, but it is fast because it's on the face of a wave. Put him on flat water in the same wind and that jibe (if staying on plane) will take a few seconds longer.
A snap jibe on the face of a wave can be done very quickly and the only reason that you will stay on plane (barely) is because the second half of the jibe is on a down slope of water, pushing you forward.
When discussing fast or slow jibes, be clear about the circumstances (wave, chop, flat water, etc.)
Last edited by techno900 on Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | It never ceases to amaze me when so many of you say something I've been doing for decades can't be done. |
1. You refuse to demonstrate (and it's so easy to do so these days with video).
2. Capable jibers find your description dubious.
3. Not even the greatest windsurfers in the world perform the feats you claim.
4. So many of us have lived through your BFF foot strap advocacy, where again you tout imaginary technique as somehow superior.
It is so easy for you to clear this up. Post video of you jibing. Have someone with a Gopro follow you on the water. Or borrow a Gopro from a friend. Or have someone shoot from shore. If you can't get out on the water, then go find video of someone else jibing in well under a second with no perceptible loss of speed. Please. A shred of evidence.
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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:13 am Post subject: |
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I slowed down the video to 1/4 time. He jibed the sail in one second, if that. He CHOSE to jibe his feet after that rather than simultaneously. Fancy that: he made a CHOICE. I'm going way out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that if he so CHOSE he could jibe sail, board, and feet simultaneously.
As best as I could tell without using a stopwatch, your 3 seconds covers the entire beam reach to beam reach course reversal. I am and have always been discussing the time required to change tacks, as Craig mentioned in his one-second tack-change video. What we do with the rest of the overall maneuver is a CHOICE. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | | That jibe is fast, but it is fast because it's on the face of a wave. Put him on flat water in the same wind and that jibe (if staying on plane) will take a few seconds longer. |
Only if by CHOICE (presuming plenty of power is available). |
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boardsurfr
Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1266
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:35 am Post subject: |
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It is a simple choice.
Either believe isobars, who states he has slashed 1-second jibes without any speed loss thousands of times, without providing any evidence for it. This would require ignoring plenty of evidence that what he claims to have done so many times is impossible. Anyone with extra time on their hands could build their own opinion by downloading GPS files from ka72.com and analyzing the jibes.
Or you could believe a guy who hundreds of students see planing through jibes beautifully every year, and who has taught hundreds (if not thousands) of students the planing jibe. I'm talking about ABK's Andy Brandt. His frequent advice for students wanting to plane through jibes is to slow things down. Worked beautifully for me, and I have seen it work for others many times. He has several exercises in his arsenal of teaching tricks where the main goal is to show you how long you can coast with little loss of speed if you are in the right stance. A lot of the posters on this thread who disagree with isobars have seen Andy do his magic (on the water and teaching-wise) many times.
So, believe the evidence, or the guy who insists he is right, and everyone else is wrong? A couple pf years ago, I would have said that's a no-brainer. I may still use the word "no-brainer", but a bit differently, describing those who choose the "we want to believe and f*** the evidence" side. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| philodog wrote: | | Do you ever get tired of bragging about yourself? Just wondering. Your sailing is boring and mediocre at best. |
It doesn't bore ME, and that's all that matters. Compliments are icing on the cake.
I prefer "average" to "mediocre", and have described my WSing skills and talent as average (and even posted supportive statistical evidence to that end) for decades. My eyes roll when people here point to world champion WSers as examples of how we mediocre/average Joes should (or even must) set up our gear, or sail, or dismount, or jibe, or get in/out of our straps, or get planing, or hook in/out, or set up our straps, or slog, or slash, or jump, or U-turn, and SO much more. "You aren't a man unless you can do stupid pet tricks", my ass.
If folks don't want objective or multiple answers, maybe they shouldn't ask questions. My answers are intended to motivate my fellow average sailors to push a bit harder towards things at the edges of their current performance envelopes, with tips to help them do it. I'm eternally disappointed in the people here who prefer to say "it can't be done" or imply that I'm mistaken or lying rather than verifying for themselves that it can, in fact, be done (and may even be a hoot). The latter gives open-minded sailors something within reach to shoot for, often with very quick rewards plus a path to improvement. Even more important, it adds OPTIONS to their quiver of CHOICES.
Simple example: Someone asked how to lace his downhaul hardware. Roger Jackson gave explicit instruction on how to lace THAT pulley arrangement, while I laid out the principles I used to lace ANY pulley arrangement. The OP then asked, "Who's right?". The correct answer was, "Both of us. Roger gave you a fish, and I showed you HOW to fish."
For every nattering negative nabob here who tells the world "It's can't be done", I've had strangers thank me for getting them past years of frustrating jibing roadblocks. Guess which group is more open-minded and exuberant. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| boardsurfr wrote: | | Andy Brandt's frequent advice for students wanting to plane through jibes is to slow things down. Worked beautifully for me |
Great! You have balance. I don't. I can't surf a swell luffed, and very rarely can I pull off a sequential jibe without simply toppling over even if planing very fast. Infinitely more important to me are the thrill and satisfaction I get from my best jibes in gnarly conditions. Moreover, I hate to waste the handling qualities of a small wave board on a slalom style big-board jibe.
| boardsurfr wrote: | | So, believe the evidence, or the guy who insists he is right, and everyone else is wrong? |
I've never said other successful techniques are wrong. I simply offer alternatives that work as OPTIONS and serve to expand skill quivers. The only people I would label as "WRONG" are those who say something this average sailor has been doing for decades can't be done and shouldn't even be tried. Craig provided video of a one-second sail tack change even with rig-handling, yet it's not possible to do it without the manhandling? Please!
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outcast
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 2724
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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"Great! You have balance. I don't. I can't surf a swell luffed, and very rarely can I pull off a sequential jibe without simply toppling over even if planing very fast. Infinitely more important to me are the thrill and satisfaction I get from my best jibes in gnarly conditions."
For all these years, I thought you were an expert |
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techno900
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe a better definition of a planing jibe is in order.
I have made some very quick, snap type jibes on small boards and sails and had plenty of wind for me to accelerate "back on plane" immediately. That means that my speed in the middle to end of the jibe was no where near planing speed, but since the power and the acceleration was so quick, one could call it a planing jibe because the slog was a fraction of a second. Do that on the face of a wave and the minimum speed immediately after the snap would be a bit faster. Iso's snap jibe???
That said, often the above jibe doesn't have the wind/power at the completion of the jibe to push me back on plane without pumping or waiting for more wind. Since I don't like to be overpowerd (well powered - yes), I likely give up some potential planing jibes due to less than ideal power at their completion.
Then, there is the normal constant radius jibe of 40'+ where the board speed is always fast enough to be on plane while coasting and stays on plane after flipping the sail and on the new tack, never slowing enough to drop off plane. The type of jibe that the typical intermediate and advanced lake sailor is trying to achieve. |
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | As best as I could tell without using a stopwatch, your 3 seconds covers the entire beam reach to beam reach course reversal. I am and have always been discussing the time required to change tacks, as Craig mentioned in his one-second tack-change video. What we do with the rest of the overall maneuver is a CHOICE. |
So all of your bellowing about "no perceptible loss in speed" is solely about when you're flipping the sail? And you always have a tail wind because you don't sail faster than the wind so of course the sail goes around fast. This is hilarious. You choose to sail slow, inefficiently (20mph for a 7.0!) and it's doubtful you're actually exiting your jibes planing unless you're sliding down swell. But you are able to maintain speed for one second, so congratulations!
Grantmac and alap seem to have bigger ambitions. To plane through jibes. They have many choices on how to achieve that (look at the thread title). I like jingebritsen's advice on throwing the duck jibe into the mix with bigger sails (up to 7.5) beautiful carving flowing jibes exiting on the plane are there for the taking. Check out the new edition of Tricktionary...there are dozens of ways to plane through jibes described.
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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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