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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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 Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| techno900 wrote: | | I have made some very quick, snap type jibes on small boards and sails and had plenty of wind for me to accelerate "back on plane" immediately. That means that my speed in the middle to end of the jibe was no where near planing speed, but since the power and the acceleration was so quick, one could call it a planing jibe because the slog was a fraction of a second. |
I would call it good sailing. Often times there isn't room or time or enough wind to carve a planing jibe. We turn the board assertively, and if we can be back up planing shortly, so much the better. Snap jibes are a great thing to have in the transition arsenal. Lately I've been learning to do them in front of waves, and then get most of my weight on my front foot (and mast) to get the board sliding downhill and back to planing speed. I've mucked the sail flip up pretty badly on some of these but still managed to use the swell to plane out.
_________________
Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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DanWeiss
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2296
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: |
I've never said other successful techniques are wrong. I simply offer alternatives that work as OPTIONS and serve to expand skill quivers. The only people I would label as "WRONG" are those who say something this average sailor has been doing for decades can't be done and shouldn't even be tried. Craig provided video of a one-second sail tack change even with rig-handling, yet it's not possible to do it without the manhandling? Please! |
Mike, a moment please.
The unique technique that may work wonderfully for you who admittedly lacks balance, sails in very, very special conditions and who's developed much of your skills there. Those techniques are fine for you. Some may be quite effective for most folks sailing in a favorable current and on a swell face, for example.
Those conditions being what they often are, and those venues being what they are, reward more people using techniques developed by instructors with decades of experience seeing what actually works best for most.
Jibing during a swell ride is pretty unique to the Gorge and allows for technique that rarely would work in more common conditions. The apparent wind is much farther back when swell riding than when on a beam reach on water without such a current simply because speed over the ground is slower while the true wind remains the same. This allows for stunning maneuvers including very fast sail flips and back-foot turning technique. Fast footwork is at more of a premium when the board turns through a jibe quickly but remains on a plane without sail power. That is to say, going from broad reach to broad reach without the need for sail power is not a very common circumstance and does allow for some pretty unusual techniques. That's exactly why folks love swell riding.
Offering advice contrary to that developed by decades of instruction, racing and free-ride windsurfing adds confusion to folks seeking to progress. I'm specifically referring to your advice to switch both feet at the same time, literally jumping or hopping from one tack to the other. Your footwork has limited application and shouldn't be offered as a reasonable alternative in conditions very different than where you find that odd technique helpful.
Every normality contains the outlier. Every standard allows for exception. To offer an exceptional technique for a pretty standard problem is unhelpful but for very unique conditions. The OP might be sailing in the Gorge but his video shows fairly mild conditions and overall technique that might impede his goal to plane out of a jibe smoothly and with speed. Suggesting he try jumping or hopping to the other side is the object of debate here. That might work for you but it's highly unlikely that it is the appropriate advice for this fellow. Your "alternative" is not good advice merely because it works for you nor should it be immune from criticism merely because you label that technique as an alternative.
The OP needs work far ahead of his setup. He is not fully sheeted in when beam reaching, his board is bounding all over the place as a result making his setup a longer affair than necessary. He slows down too much when approaching his jibe making it difficult to get serious pressure into his front foot and lead with his hips. His board looses lift as he step jibes onto starboard and travels too slowly on the new tack to make the sail flip across his face and right into his hands.
It's no big deal and easily solved by focussing on much of which has been discussed already. He needs to sheet in fully, concentrate on the new feel of sailing very powered up yet in control so that he can roll into the jibe more easily. His step jibe itself uses decent footwork, though the timing of his switch might require adjustment. What he does not need is any advice to switch both feet simultaneously. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: | | isobars wrote: | | It never ceases to amaze me when so many of you say something I've been doing for decades can't be done. |
1. You refuse to demonstrate (and it's so easy to do so these days with video).
2. Capable jibers find your description dubious.
3. Not even the greatest windsurfers in the world perform the feats you claim.
4. So many of us have lived through your BFF foot strap advocacy, where again you tout imaginary technique as somehow superior.
It is so easy for you to clear this up. Post video of you jibing. Have someone with a Gopro follow you on the water. Or borrow a Gopro from a friend. Or have someone shoot from shore. If you can't get out on the water, then go find video of someone else jibing in well under a second with no perceptible loss of speed. Please. A shred of evidence. |
Please tell us how this "Have someone ..." concept works. Does it involve a court decree? Blackmail? Is a gun involved? Holding the victim's children hostage? Even if there were a way to "have someone ..." do something, I'd never ask anyone to sacrifice precious wind just to satisfy you guys' inexplicable fascination with media or your childish (envious?) ignorance of what others do.
I own a GoPro, and we've discussed it at length.
My objectives include having fun, advancing my skills, helping people WHO WANT HELP, and trying to force 30 hours of living into each day. I gave up my career and miss some vital cancer medications in that pursuit, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna sacrifice any windy days* to satisfy myopic internet detractors. I don't give a rat's ass that some hidebound sailors are upset because I sail differently than they do. That's their problem, not mine.
* I've even had would-be videographers expect me DRIVE 300 FREAKING MILES to their backyards so they could do their thing. Dudes, I've never even watched a music video, I don't watch sports on TV, and can prove that I'd infinitely rather windsurf than watch a world championship sailing contest 500 yards away. (My) life's too short to watch others have fun when I could be having fun myself.
Craig Goudy would not claim to be among the world's greatest sailors, but he showed a video of his one-second sail jibe. We saw a video of Stone duck jibing his sail in about a second. Why would a video of me be any different from those videos? Oh, I know; you just wanna bust my chops. (Jibing feet sequentially is their CHOICE; it's not mine.)
BFF is imaginary? Tell that to CoachG and Bruce Peterson, who do it occasionally, and to this guy who has done it > 100,000 times. "Superiority" is subjective, and we've beaten the pros and cons of BFF to death ten times, but saying it's imaginary is insane. This isn't your highway; it's everyone's, and each of us gets to CHOOSE how to drive on it. I've laid out the physics, practical, and safety advantages to BFF many times, but have never claimed that FFF is BS or imaginary.
Look, the primary reason I've even seen, let alone read, these negative flames from the killfiled crew here has been in the interest of open minded people willing to expand their knowledge and skill bases. I must presume that many of them resent you guys' attempts to force fit them into your narrow little worlds.
As I've said many times over the years with no takers, you're welcome to come video me any time you wish. Just be fair when you edit it; I'm losing ground in some skills, and advancing in others. And ... PLEASE ... leave your GD Uppa US attitude at home. It doesn't sit well in the heartland. |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | I am and have always been discussing the time required to change tacks, as Craig mentioned in his one-second tack-change video. What we do with the rest of the overall maneuver is a CHOICE. |
Fair enough. By official ABK definition a jibe is when the tail of the board passes through 12 o'clock. By that definition all my jibes take 1 second or less. I guess the issue is what constitutes the start of a jibe & what constitutes the end. If you count the start the time my foot slides across and the end the time I hook in on the opposite tack, then I average 6 seconds, any size board/sail/terrain planing through all the way. However, I count my jibe as the time I actually look around, reach back & unhook so figure an additional 3-4 seconds. I practice what I preach & practice what I teach, a slow jibe setup.
As far as losing no perceptible ground other than a snap jibe I find rather dubious. Both Josh & Robby carve tight-wave assisted jibes-and even those lose twice as much if not more ground than a tack.
Coachg |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| DanWeiss wrote: | | isobars wrote: |
I've never said other successful techniques are wrong. I simply offer alternatives that work as OPTIONS and serve to expand skill quivers. The only people I would label as "WRONG" are those who say something this average sailor has been doing for decades can't be done and shouldn't even be tried. Craig provided video of a one-second sail tack change even with rig-handling, yet it's not possible to do it without the manhandling? Please! |
Mike, a moment please.
The unique technique that may work wonderfully for you who admittedly lacks balance, sails in very, very special conditions and who's developed much of your skills there. Those techniques are fine for you. Some may be quite effective for most folks sailing in a favorable current and on a swell face, for example.
Those conditions being what they often are, and those venues being what they are, reward more people using techniques developed by instructors with decades of experience seeing what actually works best for most.
Jibing during a swell ride is pretty unique to the Gorge and allows for technique that rarely would work in more common conditions. The apparent wind is much farther back when swell riding than when on a beam reach on water without such a current simply because speed over the ground is slower while the true wind remains the same. This allows for stunning maneuvers including very fast sail flips and back-foot turning technique. Fast footwork is at more of a premium when the board turns through a jibe quickly but remains on a plane without sail power. That is to say, going from broad reach to broad reach without the need for sail power is not a very common circumstance and does allow for some pretty unusual techniques. That's exactly why folks love swell riding.
Offering advice contrary to that developed by decades of instruction, racing and free-ride windsurfing adds confusion to folks seeking to progress. I'm specifically referring to your advice to switch both feet at the same time, literally jumping or hopping from one tack to the other. Your footwork has limited application and shouldn't be offered as a reasonable alternative in conditions very different than where you find that odd technique helpful.
Every normality contains the outlier. Every standard allows for exception. To offer an exceptional technique for a pretty standard problem is unhelpful but for very unique conditions. The OP might be sailing in the Gorge but his video shows fairly mild conditions and overall technique that might impede his goal to plane out of a jibe smoothly and with speed. Suggesting he try jumping or hopping to the other side is the object of debate here. That might work for you but it's highly unlikely that it is the appropriate advice for this fellow. Your "alternative" is not good advice merely because it works for you nor should it be immune from criticism merely because you label that technique as an alternative.
The OP needs work far ahead of his setup. He is not fully sheeted in when beam reaching, his board is bounding all over the place as a result making his setup a longer affair than necessary. He slows down too much when approaching his jibe making it difficult to get serious pressure into his front foot and lead with his hips. His board looses lift as he step jibes onto starboard and travels too slowly on the new tack to make the sail flip across his face and right into his hands.
It's no big deal and easily solved by focussing on much of which has been discussed already. He needs to sheet in fully, concentrate on the new feel of sailing very powered up yet in control so that he can roll into the jibe more easily. His step jibe itself uses decent footwork, though the timing of his switch might require adjustment. What he does not need is any advice to switch both feet simultaneously. |
I appreciate your impersonal, objective, and insightful analysis, but ... one more time:
• That's why I suggested an earlier and more forceful sail jibe rather than simultaneous footwork. The latter is more advanced, but it did get me and others past a footwork hump faced by many new jibers. Most important to me and many others was the hands-off sail jibe, aka T,T,G,&G.
• no perceptible current where I sail.
• my basic approach works anywhere, anytime, on any terrain and at any speed. This swell you're talking about is icing on the cake that gets good only on the best of days and depends on many conditions.
• I learned how to jibe on rough New Mexico lakes (the nearest one was appropriately NAMED "shitty", spelled Cochiti) before I even heard of "the Gorge". THAT was very definitely real-world sailing.
• "Jumping off the board" relates to full-speed jibes in heavy, dense chop over waist-high. In lesser terrain the feet smoothly glide simultaneously from incoming to exit position.
• I don't "ride swell" like most Gorge "swell riders". Even when I had the balance for it, it has never interested me very much. I love leaving the same twisted ant tracks they do, but prefer doing it WFO with the hammer down. It's my CHOICE, and it gets a lot of comments ranging from "Why don't you slow down and coast" to "How the hell do you DO that?" and "You do that HOOKED IN?". (Of course, it required appropriate gear to begin with and a learning curve to advance it.)
• Re "Going from broad reach to broad reach without the need for sail power is not a very common circumstance": Then why is it so often and so emphatically said that a jibe is a 90-degree turn; the other 90 degrees is just sailing.
• Many people on multiple continents have told me my techniques got them past years-long barriers to planing jibes, getting in the straps, and more. They work, and for some people have produced huge benefits. Denying that out of ignorance is extremely self-centered.
• "Criticism" and being impugned as a liar (literally in some previous threads) are very different concepts. Here again, denying the validity of successful alternative techniques out of ignorance is extremely self-centered because it denies gullible readers the chance to draw their own conclusions and/or expand their own body of knowledge and skills.
Many facts are denied through ignorance. Here are some more examples:
The earth revolves around the sun.
Man really CAN fly, at least with the aid of machines.
Those machines really can exceed the speed of sound.
One normal man really can lift one end, side, or at least corner of a car.
Saturated fats are good for us.
Type 2 diabetes can often, probably usually, be cured by diet.
One good witness can defeat an opposing lawyer in court.
One of those highly touted world-renowned instructors advocated jibing with straight legs.
Guy Cribb is not always right.
The lower our cholesterol, the sooner we die.
Along that vein, it's not just my own highly informed conclusion that statins may be the greatest, maybe even most potentially lethal, fraud in medical history. |
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philodog
Joined: 28 Apr 2000
Posts: 209
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cgoudie1
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2599
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:54 pm Post subject: Who Cares |
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Oh for cry'n out loud! I'm not in agreement with all the jibing advice,
but there's been a fair amount of good advice presented
here about how to plane out of a jibe (even some of it by Mike), and the original videos seemed an attempt to help Mr grantmac017 and maybe even Mr alap (Michael deserves sainthood for his efforts there).
I'm as guilty of thread creep as anybody, but I wonder if the OP is getting any benefit from validity of jibe times?
-Craig |
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swchandler
Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, 41 posts from isobars. It's definitely an all about "me" marathon that he is well known for, complete with him whining about being the victim in the fray. Classic isobars.
It's a bit sad that he couldn't get Craig's name right. |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: | | Often times there isn't room or time or enough wind to carve a planing jibe. Snap jibes are a great thing to have in the transition arsenal. ... I've mucked the sail flip up pretty badly on some of these but still managed to use the swell to plane out. |
Now THERE'S a place where spinning the rig hands free -- TTGG -- really pays off, whether on a face, flat water, or anything in between ... any time and any place where minimum sail jibing time is vital for any reason (e.g., an obstacle, a closeout, slogging, uwanna). When every second counts, why waste even one of them handling the rig unnecessarily and/or rotating it about its hinges rather than about its vertical axis? Does anyone think that a top spins fastest about some spot painted on its equator?
Sounds like there's room in your arsenal for a new option. |
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westender
Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1288
Location: Portland / Gorge
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| In the video it looked like he had plenty of board and sail. With smaller gear it would be easier to jibe. |
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