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Step/flip vs. Flip/step vs. Flip/sail out switch
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philodog wrote:
"One second jibe. Yeah, that's the ticket"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4


I don't call folks a liar unless they lied, I can prove it, and a bystander's interests are at stake.

What's your excuse ... someone discusses something you can't do, or that is contrary to your personal experience, or whose politics you dispute?

Prove I can't jibe a rig boom to boom in one second and I'll give you a board. Tip: you don't get to redefine the terms to include looking for a flat spot, or bearing off into a broad reach 'til hell freezes over, or dancing the step jibe minuet, or strapping in. Hooking in within that second? That has happened, but is serendipitous icing, not cake. No promises there.

Until you can back up your disgusting accusation, I hereby remove the "h" from philodog.

And, yeah, I've already heard many jokes mangling my last name. Ya gotta come with a new one to impress anyone.

The only way I can see to get your diversion back on topic is to encourage open-minded people to consider trying something new even if unimaginative myrmidons are afraid to even try, let alone learn it. Tip: TTGG advanced my jibing skills dramatically and permanently the first time I tried it some 30 years ago. It's a real rush, and is highly practical in almost every ordinary (i.e., no ducks, monkeys, or other fauna unless your picture graces magazine covers) jibe. Heed the negative doomsayers at your own peril.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Defining jibe time may be needed. Is it:
1. Boom to boom
2. Unhook to hook in
3. Beam reach, carving 180 degrees to beam reach in the opposite direction
4. Step to leeward rail and sheet in (begin carve) to sail and feet flipped/switched on the opposite tack.

5. Number 4 but ends with feet in straps and hooked in.
6. Number 4 but ends with sail flipped and both hands on the boom. I actually do this before I switch my feet.

The point is that many folks can boom to boom in a second on small stuff, but that's only a small part of the total jibe. So, when does the stopwatch start and stop? Let's look at apples and apples.
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fxop



Joined: 13 Jun 1998
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Lately I've been learning to do them in front of waves, and then get most of my weight on my front foot (and mast) to get the board sliding downhill and back to planing speed. I've mucked the sail flip up pretty badly on some of these but still managed to use the swell to plane out.


Two things I'm always amazed by when trying to jibe on a wave face:

1) How early I have to start the jibe and how much speed I need,

2) How early I have to flip if I do catch the wave due to the apparent wind changing earlier as I accelerate earlier with the push of the wave.

It's a great feeling when you catch it, and a terrible feeling to be left behind, all that fun heading to the beach without you!

fxop
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fxop wrote:


Two things I'm always amazed by when trying to jibe on a wave face:

1) How early I have to start the jibe and how much speed I need,

2) How early I have to flip if I do catch the wave due to the apparent wind changing earlier as I accelerate earlier with the push of the wave.

It's a great feeling when you catch it, and a terrible feeling to be left behind, all that fun heading to the beach without you!


Ditto (for the most part)!

The speed of the wave coming at you (me) is not what we're used to...we're used to aiming at a fixed spot to jibe. This one is moving!

I have mucked up the sail flip pretty much every way you can (including dropping the sail completely) and pulled the jibe out in the end, by keeping the board planing (surfing) the wave face. It's exciting. (I've also blown wave jibes completely every way possible.) Where I feel I get stuck the most is waiting to commit. As discussed, the approaching swell comes fast and requires us to jibe early.

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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com


Last edited by PeconicPuffin on Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
I'd never ask anyone to sacrifice precious wind just to satisfy you guys' inexplicable fascination with media


says the guy with eighteen thousand posts

isobars wrote:
or your childish (envious?) ignorance of what others do.


Nobody is envious of the jibe you describe...entering with relatively low speed (certainly slower than the wind) having to snap the rig around fast in the ensuing tailwind (the opposite of what planing jibers are seeking) and then exiting with as little speed as you entered.

That is not a planing jibe. This thread is about planing jibes. The point of getting you to post video of your jibe is to show all the people working on planing jibes what your jibes look like. You flip the sail in one second because you have to. You have "no perceivable loss of speed" during that one second because, well, you either lost your speed earlier or never had much to begin with. I do stand corrected though...I thought you meant you jibed from beam reach to beam reach on one second...but you were talking about perhaps 20 degrees of the turn. You should start a thread on snap jibes. That's what you're describing. And use the GoPro you have to show the world what you're talking about. For the benefit of windsurfers everywhere.

Back to the planing jibe: The sailor is sailing with good speed, bears off smoothly (accelerating even more) so that as the board gets close to heading straight downwind the rig goes light...there are only a few mph of wind in it. The sail flip is not rushed (the Andy Brandt quote is "the slower the sailor moves, the faster he jibes") and the sailor carves back into power, planing out. Flipping the sail in "well under one second" isn't a CHOICE...the aerodynamics prevent it. You would know this if you carried more speed through the transition. The only way for a planing jiber to flip the sail in one second would be to duck it late...doable, but not as conducive to a golden carve as starting the duck earlier and keeping it smooth. Duck jibes make wonderful planing jibes.

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Bendover



Joined: 13 Sep 2011
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars "

1x

Back foot on rail, thrust hips, THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO, switch both feet simultaneously, DONE* ... all faster than you can say the words normally. 

* No, I didn't forget to type "raking the sail back and hooking in"; when done right, the harness lines fling out via centrifugal force and hook in while both feet are off the deck switching stance and the sail is spinning. All that remains is getting in the straps, FFF or BFF, if your feet didn't engage one (rare), or both (hen's teeth) straps when they came down. 

2.

Between planting the back foot on the rail and getting back into the straps, I unweight and simultaneously switch both feet to their exit positions. Done. That footwork takes maybe a quarter of a second. 

Want proof? Stand up and stagger your feet so one's in the front foot strap location, the other is "on the rail". Now unweight them ... i.e., hop them off the floor just high enough to clear the front strap with your rail foot... and switch 'em. If that takes you more than a quarter of a second, you're defying gravity, because a 3"-high-jump lasts only 0.250 seconds. Do the math. 

If you can do those 6 or 7 steps quicker than that, I bow to thee. 

Timing of the foot switch depends on many factors, as does the sail flip, but the only handwork from inbound beam reach to exit beam reach is sliding the front hand forward, then a THROW/THROW/GRAB/GO about as fast as you can say it, well under a second, at which point you are sheeted in and accelerating on the new broad reach, maybe even hooked in. 

3.

The more powered I am when I begin my jibe, the sooner in the turn I must oversheet (back hand in, front hand forward and into the turn); otherwise it actually takes muscle power or is not feasible at all, in which cases I swerve back a bit to windward to lighten the back hand load, THEN oversheet dramatically, THEN jibe. The first time you cannot oversheet, then solve the problem by thrusting the front hand forward and in as you oversheet, the rig will instantly feel like a mast and boom with no sail on them, a big bright light will go on over your head, you will turn like you’ve never turned before, you will be so enthralled by it that you will forget to flip the sail, and you will get backwinded and fall in. 

The next time that light comes on you will know to jibe the sail sooner. 

That same combination of oversheeting with the back hand and driving the front hand forward and into the turn will also convert a mild leeward change of direction into a hard slash, if accompanied by appropriate foot pressure. On a board designed to turn, pulling on that back hand as you slash will provide much the same sensation as grabbing a flagpole as you run by it; you’ll want your cap and shades snugly fastened.

4,,

I suspect semantics are involved, in that while we shouldn't concentrate on lee rail foot pressure at the expense of everything else we must do, that foot pressure is still vital to carving all the way through. My (and others') rail pressure improved by leaps and bounds the first time I forgot about "rail foot pressure" and just thrust my hips into the turn. Letting the sail pull us into the turn does much the same thing, and overlaps significantly with hip trust. Both, whether separately or together, actively (just not so consciously) generate and maintain an active carving input. 

55

Just one of several reasons I prefer fast, tight jibes: screw flat spots. I'm often unhooked for less than three seconds when I'm doin' it right.

6.

Since jibing the board requires only a swish of the hips -- not much more than one second once that inside foot is on its rail -- the objective is to jibe sail and feet in LESS than that second. When done right this takes you from the incoming beam reach to the outgoing broad reach, with no loss of speed, hooked in and groping for the straps, within the span of a couple of heartbeats. That seems pretty danged efficient to me. 

7.

THROW the back hand away hard and much sooner, and THROW the mast across your face hard a millisecond later. This places the new side of the boom floating in the air right where you want it; GRAB it and GO . . . sail away at full power and without having lost any speed from the incoming screaming broad reach. 

My best (zero speed loss clear through the jibe, as fluid as a simple swerve, no bobbles at all, unhooked for just 2-3 seconds) come when I throw the sail at about 4:00 and am sheeted in and still accelerating by 7:00. No more reaching for or pulling on the sail, front or back hand. This bidness of waiting or maneuvering until the wind rotates the sail is 
s-l-o-w-w-w-w and interferes with . . . you know . . . JIBING. 

It may sound like on screen like an advanced, specialty form of jibe, but a) it got me over a many-years non-jibing plateau and b) my first one, the one that changed windsurfing for me, came when it was jibe right freaking NOW or hit the shore 30 feet downwind and parallel to my beam reach. 

Setup? SPEED, inside foot on its rail behind the front strap, knees flexed to the point youre looking forward below the boom, eyes locked onto your intended path out of the jibe, weight on your toes but spine upright (you curtsey, not bow), fromt arm straight out stiff-arming oncoming tacklers, back hand sheeting the sail in grazing your leg so the sail foot doesnt hit the chop. Then -- all in the space of about one second -- swing your hips into the turn as though bumping the car door closed, THROW, THROW, GRAB, and GO, and youre sheeted in on the new broad reach WFO. Its effortless and completely fluid. Theres wind in the sail only while youre sheeted in and accelerating; the rest of the time, while youre oversheeted and flipping the sail, it seems to be in a vacuum. 
8,

Read my jibe tips and get back to us. Does your approach take you from sheeted in on the incoming beam reach to sheeted in -- maybe even hooked in -- on the outgoing broad reach in the space of one heartbeat with zero loss of speed through the entire jibe? 

9.
You missed a vital part: In the space of a heartbeat. When you really get these things wired, you can be sheeted in on a flat-out starboard beam reach one second and sheeted in on an even faster port broad reach one second later. Any loss of speed can be so brief and so inconsequential that neither jiber nor observer perceives it. 

Its like banking a hard shot off a pool table rail. The winds not going to do that for you, because it doesnt even touch the sail when you spin it hard at the right time. The actual sail jibe, from sheeted in on starboard to sheeted in on port, probably takes half a second for sails under about 5 meters, and is often completed before the board points downwind. This form of jibe is basically a very hard, very high-g-force, almost instantaneous, 135-degree slash from one beam reach to the opposite broad reach, with a sail spin and foot switch thrown in during the sub-second your feet arent busy steering the board. 

And, done right, this jibe IS an acceleration, because it is little more than a quick slash off the wind. The tiny bit of speed given up momentarily to the second with no power and to the wall of water it throws up is quickly regained the instant we sheet in on the new broad reach. The result is often that board speed is faster just after the 135-degree swerve (on the broad reach exit) than it was before the swerve (on the incoming beam reach), just as one accelerates in a 45-degree swerve from beam to broad reach. The sensation is that of riding that pool ball into and out of that rail, not of driving a sluggish Miata through an autocross chicane. 

10..

Hop jibe" would be accurate when I leave the board with both feet at once to let the board clear chop without impediment, but on smooth water my feet usually slide simultaneously, maintaining weightless contact with the board all or most of the time. It's just a matter of degree and height, not a different technique. All that bearing off to gain speed and stepping and pivoting and heels and balls of our feet and sliding hands and touching the mast and reaching around the mast and waiting for the wind to "flip" the sail stuff is time-consuming and unnecessary ... options we can dispense with if we like to just Git Er Done and get on with the next reach rather than dally over the U-turn. All that's really necessary is this, in a beam reach: 1) placing our back foot on the rail, 2) thrusting our hips, 3) spinning the sail, 4) switching our feet simultaneously (in ballet it's called a changement), 5) grabbing the free-floating boom, and 6) sailing away, some of those parts (especially 2 though 5) done virtually simultaneously, and with no perceptible loss of speed, all in the space of a couple of heartbeats. I'd never be able to plane my sinker wave boards through a jibe as wide as Willy does in that video.

11,

When that gets easy, do it at warp speed in random, harsh terrain. Jibing on wave/swell faces overtaxes my balance; much tighter jibes in truly gnarly garbage come easier to me simply because they must be very quick, chop be damned. Because they're quick, I don't have time to slow down; my sail is depowered for less than one second when I do 'em right. Some are little more than literally a 90-degree horizontal bounce off a piece of chop, during which I switch feet and boom sides. 

That is the heart and soul of my best jibes. I spin the sail and let go completely. While it spins freely, untouched, I unweigh both feet and switch them simultaneously; I'm touching neither board nor rig as the rig and I spin in the air. When I time it right, as I did most times until recently, I land on the board near both straps, with the new side of the boom simply floating in mid-air in front of me ... like magic, as you say. I grab it, sheet in, and accelerate even more because I'm in the new broad reach. The result of all this is what feels like acceleration throughout the jibe, as the only time I'm not fully powered is during the sub-second sail spin. One second I'm fully wound out in the incoming beam reach, the next I'm accelerating under full power in the new broad reach; the whole jibe feels like acceleration, not deceleration. (Anybody who thinks this is self-aggrandizement doesn't understand stoke; any aggressive sailor can learn to do it on a board <100 liters; it's how I learned to jibe in the absence of any available lessons.) 

12

Mine, OTOH, are carved, but turning off the tail rather than the whole rail. They throw up a head-high curtain of water. They are, however, timing jibes; if I mistime the sails spin by a half-second, it's crash or lucky recovery time,

13.

For several years I ripped all the way through at least 90% of my jibes with no perceptible loss of speed, in most cases, in any terrain (presuming good wind

"


14, and on and 9n and on and on....


You're own writing words over decades really seems to be that you can go from hooked in footstraps to hokked in and footstraps by jibing in a second while going really fast. Are you changing how dlfast that happens now by using the sugested 1 second to only flip the sail?

how do you keep the inside rail weighted to carve so tight with head high curtains of water while no part of y9ur body is touching any part of youre boardbnor rig?

how do you jump your feet off the board togehter when the front foot if still in the strap?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
This thread is about planing jibes. The point of getting you to post video of your jibe is to show all the people working on planing jibes what your jibes look like. You flip the sail in one second because you have to. You have "no perceivable loss of speed" during that one second because, well, you either lost your speed earlier or never had much to begin with. ... You should start a thread on snap jibes. That's what you're describing ...The only way for a planing jiber to flip the sail in one second would be to duck it


Absolute, ignorant, myopic, hidebound nonsense. You're welcome to continue barn-door (and sequential step-) jibing 'til the cows come home, but telling others who may be interested in progressing that it doesn't work is shameful. Face it; there are some people out there who can do things you apparently can't ... in this case because you declare it impossible without even understanding, let alone trying, it. If it's impossible at high speeds, why have so many people thanked me for it?
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 946

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many races have you won with your technique Isobars?
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1266

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeconicPuffin wrote:
Nobody is envious of the jibe you describe...entering with relatively low speed (certainly slower than the wind) having to snap the rig around fast in the ensuing tailwind
...
You flip the sail in one second because you have to.

Very good point! When sailing in "typical Gorge conditions" (35 mph wind, big chop/swell), board speed for almost all sailors will be slow - less than 20 mph. However, since they experience an apparent wind around 40 mph, they will definitely feel very fast. When it's time to flip the sail, the windsurfer will have an apparent wind of around 20 mph coming mostly from behind. The wind will rotate the sail very quickly. A throw may be needed just to be able to reach the boom on the new side, and is certainly possible.

PeconicPuffin wrote:

The sailor is sailing with good speed, bears off smoothly (accelerating even more) so that as the board gets close to heading straight downwind the rig goes light ......there are only a few mph of wind in it.
...
Flipping the sail in "well under one second" isn't a CHOICE...the aerodynamics prevent it.

You are absolutely correct, but one may have to experience this to believe it. It's a bit similar to entering a duck jibe at full speed on flat water, and ducking a bit too early. With a board speed very close to the wind speed, the sail moves at an incredibly slow pace. Hence Andy's statement that "it is possible to duck too early" - it's just quite rare for someone learning the duck jibe.

Throwing the sail in an attempt to make the regular sail flip faster is even funnier on slalom gear in moderate wind. You typically are significantly faster than the wind entering the jibe, and it is possible to carry this speed quite deep into the turn, past dead downwind. Then, trying to throw the sail to a accelerate the rig flip does not work at all -in the best case, it slows down the board a lot, but more likely, it pushes you straight into the water.

This concept can be very hard to understand for someone who always sails slower than the wind. I recall a very experienced windsurf teacher in Cabarete whom I asked about what to do in such a situation. He absolutely did not understand the question, because it never had happened to him. He usually sailed on wave gear in chop or waves. I think it is safe to assume that isobars has a similar problem to understand what the hell you are talking about. Andy Brandt, on the other hand, can certainly explain you the necessary technique to flip the sail when still much faster than the wind dead downwind (slice & rotate, not unlike the heli tack).

In what most East Coast windsurfers call "survival conditions" (30+ knot winds and big chop), there may be a place for "throwing" the rig into the turn, and perhaps even for faster footwork. However, those are not the conditions in alap's jibe videos. For these more common "regular" conditions, a lot of isobars' advice is somewhere between "bad" and "physically impossible".

On the other hand, the step jibe as taught by ABK, Dasher, and many others is quite versatile, and works in many different conditions, from barely planing to crazy overpowered. Intermediate windsurfers can learn it in a couple of days (at least those without bad habits from years of trying on their own); PWA sailors at slalom events like Fuerteventura and Sylt with 40 knot wind do basically the same technique.

isobars wrote:
Even my 7.5 never came out until near 20, and even then only once per year in sheer desperation such as a couple of weeks in Corpus Christi in March.

Therein lies the problem. isobars never sails in conditions that are typical for much of the country. Anyone learning to jibe is quite likely to do so in 20 mph wind, give or take a few knots. But even though isobars never sails in these conditions (according to his own statements!), he still thinks he knows better than all those windsurfer who do so on a regular basis. Reminds me again of Agent Orange who knows more about climate change than thousands of climate scientists ...
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at this jibe - Starts at 53 seconds. It's strap to strap (type) jibe, meaning that the sail is flipped before the feet switch. I do this well on starboard tack, but can't get very often on port.

The sail flip can be pretty fast, faster than this guy and this one is about a second+.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwfZB4CQ3hw
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