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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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 Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| grantmac017 wrote: | | I misunderstood you to mean the gybe itself takes a second. |
That is a separate issue. Yes, jibes can take a second, while being extremely smooth, but the same instantaneous sail flip also works just fine on looooooong, drawn out, planing downhill carves and when slogging very slowly. |
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1158
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:26 am Post subject: |
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There is lots of good info. Whether ducking or not, I find that two things are the most important for my smoothest jibes.
1. Choose the spot where I initiate the turn. Water state should help weight transfer from outside to inside.
2. Look well ahead. This smoothes out the turn and helps overall balance.
I also like to bend my knees when hitting chop, it also lowers the center of gravity but I focus on having light feet to keep the board as fast and nimble as possible. Straight legs transfer power, weight should transfer from back foot to front foot while keeping drive.
Sail flip and body weight/swinging movement or sail duck and turn carving need perfect timing to sail downwind on a plane. Getting a little push from chop/swell + a friendly gust that powers us nicely and off we go!
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| manuel wrote: | | ... to sail downwind on a plane. |
To me, that's an invitation to maximum bouncing. I saw two extremes in one spot just yesterday. One sailor sailed at least 50 yards dead downwind as part of a jibe in thigh-high choppy swell, while another one simply jibed ... wham, bam, thank you ma'am ... as he avoided the downwinding jiber. The difference was 50 yards' loss of ground, 6-8 seconds, bounding like a kangaroo over many rows of chopswell, ultimately stalling, exiting clew first, waiting for the wind to rotate the sail, and having to start planing all over again.
I really enjoy ripping downwind, but not when my objective is to make a U-turn. |
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manuel
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Even that is unnecessary if entry speed and power are sufficient. My smoothest, quickest jibes are from hammered beam reaches, where bearing off is unnecessary. Ya just jibe board, rig, and feet from the incoming beam reach to the exit broad reach in one simultaneous, effortless, one-second motion. Robby suggested it in a magazine decades ago comparing under-, normal-, and over-powered jibe paths, and my tutorial covers it. It even works from pointing high into the wind when overpowered. |
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cgoudie1
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2599
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:43 am Post subject: |
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I'm not disagreeing, a tight turn will keep you from bouncing over chop,
and in really powered up conditions I'm wanting a tight jibe for sure,
but you can also use the terrain for fun during a jibe. Here's one I've
posted before that's a lot longer than 50 yards loss of ground, and I loved
every lost yard, but I didn't do any bouncing, I stayed with the "swell".
For those in the foot switch debate, if you look closely you'll notice I
don't switch feet until near the end of the video. Think of it as a long
jibe with a few extra turns thrown in. ;*)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HafXfAs-00w
-Craig
| isobars wrote: | | manuel wrote: | | ... to sail downwind on a plane. |
To me, that's an invitation to maximum bouncing. I saw two extremes in one spot just yesterday. One sailor sailed at least 50 yards dead downwind as part of a jibe in thigh-high choppy swell, while another one simply jibed ... wham, bam, thank you ma'am ... as he avoided the downwinding jiber. The difference was 50 yards' loss of ground, 6-8 seconds, bounding like a kangaroo over many rows of chopswell, ultimately stalling, exiting clew first, waiting for the wind to rotate the sail, and having to start planing all over again.
I really enjoy ripping downwind, but not when my objective is to make a U-turn. |
Last edited by cgoudie1 on Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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coachg
Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3550
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| isobars wrote: | | Even that is unnecessary if entry speed and power are sufficient. |
People who are struggling with jibes generally do not have the necessary speed & power on entry. Many have it on approach but because of a poor setup they lose their speed in the entry. If you have the necessary speed & power then sail flip before or after becomes a moot point.
Coachg |
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isobars
Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| cgoudie1 wrote: | I'm not disagreeing, a tight turn will keep you from bouncing over chop,
and in really powered up conditions I'm wanting a tight jibe for sure,
but you can also use the terrain for fun during a jibe. Here's one I've
posted before that's a lot longer than 50 yards loss of ground, and I loved
every lost yard, but I didn't do any bouncing, I stayed with the "swell".
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That's a different game. I often rip downwind for hundreds of yards (hooray for roller bars and lots of power), doing my damnedest to outrun the swell just for thrills, then flip the sail from that point of sail for a 30-40-degree jibe. But the sailor I was describing was sailing downwind in more chop than swell, apparently searching for a flat spot in which to actually jibe the board and sail or waiting for the wind to rotate the sail. Other sailors jibing anywhere nearby (it was along a shoreline, where the choices were to dodge, jibe, or ram Oregon) had to get out of the way. |
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alap
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 156
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| PeconicPuffin wrote: |
...
1. not entering the jibe with enough speed,
2. losing the speed by sheeting out or otherwise not keeping the board carving smoothly, which sinks the tail, which loses speed and builds up pressure in the sail, or
3. Dabbing at the carve, and making a very wide turn in which you lose all your speed sailing endlessly downwind.
For most people it's a combination of 1 and 2.
....
If the rig never goes light for you, no foot change technique is going to get you to plane out of the jibe.
... In my avatar photo to the left, I'm in the carve just beginning to open the sail for the flip. |
couple more Qs on the flip per se.
I made very big progress recently, based on this and other threads advises. Certainly I move slowly, and have plenty of time to control, unhook, back foot out, roll the body in, straight front hand and sheeted in back one, and 1 and 2 doesn't apply to me. My sail definitely feels light at some point and this point comes significantly sooner than before (i.e. I have more speed than before) (and yes Coach, you were right, by some reason I don't notice chop anymore)
number 3... yes, more often than not I delay this flip somewhat.
The times when I do it early... the feel is that I just throw my body into the turn. I mean, board points more or less downwind, the mast goes from inside to outside, the sail got opened (say 90 degrees to the centerline) and from that position I throw my body forward and inside. Then things happen extremely fast - the footwork, the clew hand pushes the sail downwind. The body is turned out towards the centerline (and I still manage to look outside and forward).
And the moment the clew passes downwind things happen even faster - one whomp move and the sail is flipped very fast. I am guessing the board is moving faster than the wind - so apparent wind comes from the front and the moment the clew crosses downwind it is flipped instantly, and I am finding myself coasting straight downwind with sail roughly 90 degrees to the centerline but clew pointing outside the turn.
This is the moment when I kinda can compose myself and access the situation. Because of speed it is very stable , body is vertical and inclined a little bit into the turn. Mast is not very far away (which tells me my old front boomshaka hand is not straight), again vertical but inclined slightly outside. I can grab the mast or go boom to boom with my old clew hand. Very stable, plenty of time, and 100% that it is dry jibe and may be even a hope to not loose a plane...
What I am founding super important that at that moment I have to drag the mast across the vertical into the turn - with old hand, with new hand, with both hands - holding it by booms or just by mast. Appears that this very important, more important than boom to boom. I admit that more often than not I dont do it, board slowdowns, turns last 90 degrees, I got off the plane, still moving, very stable, very dry, but no speed.
So here are the Qs:
1. Like in PP avatar - when you open the sail, your front hand stays extended all the time? when you carving, when you move your mast to outside from inside, when you do footwork, when you step forward with your new front foot - at every moment front hand has to be straight? I am asking, because I don't think mine is extended... when I do on land, it is extended, when I am on the water, I doubt it.
2.My opening is a sequence of events - first mast is moved from inside to outside, and simultaneously the clew is opened, so it is board pointing downwind and sail perpendicular to the board, clew pointing inside, and in that moment I throw my body inside and forward, if you will ducking my torso into nowhere, into the turn, knowing that despite this I won't fall. Is this correct? Or I am moving mast to outside too early?
3. When I finish the flip - there should be separation from me and the mast? like again extended hands?
4. Is my observation for dragging the mast across the centerline and forward in the very end correct? |
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PeconicPuffin
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1830
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| alap wrote: |
1. Like in PP avatar - when you open the sail, your front hand stays extended all the time? when you carving, when you move your mast to outside from inside, when you do footwork, when you step forward with your new front foot - at every moment front hand has to be straight? I am asking, because I don't think mine is extended... when I do on land, it is extended, when I am on the water, I doubt it. |
The front arm does not stay fully extended during the sail flip. It needs to bend some. (In the avatar photo my front arm is bending as I begin the sail flip). You want to keep the rig away from you (otherwise you may find yourself accidentally hooking in to the harness lines) but the arm bends.
| alap wrote: | | 2.My opening is a sequence of events - first mast is moved from inside to outside, and simultaneously the clew is opened, so it is board pointing downwind and sail perpendicular to the board, clew pointing inside, and in that moment I throw my body inside and forward, if you will ducking my torso into nowhere, into the turn, knowing that despite this I won't fall. Is this correct? Or I am moving mast to outside too early? |
You shouldn't be throwing your body anywhere. Move smoothly. As your old front foot steps forward and across the centerline (followed by your old back foot stepping forward, pointing towards the nose of the board) keep moving your weight forward smoothly. A little downward pressure on the boom helps too. Your hips should be over the carving (downwind) rail, and your head should be straight up...Dasher says "keep your head outside the turn".
| alap wrote: | | 3. When I finish the flip - there should be separation from me and the mast? like again extended hands? |
Yes. If you don't overbend your front arm when you start the sail flip this should happen naturally.
| alap wrote: | | 4. Is my observation for dragging the mast across the centerline and forward in the very end correct? |
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. When the flipped sail is caught on the new side (first by your "new" front hand, then the new back hand) the front hand should extend the rig forward (towards the nose) and then slide back towards the harness lines, so you can handle the power as it comes back into the sail.
BTW you shouldn't be looking at the sail during any part of the jibe. When you initiate (pushing the mast forward and inside) your head should be looking where you're going...forward and into the turn...the sail and footwork happen but your head doesn't move, as you exit looking forward and out of the turn on your new reach. Keep your head still, do not look at the rig. Looking at the rig can throw off your weight distribution. Also, looking forward during the flip can help compensate for the clew weight as the rig swings. I wouldn't be so concerned about the angle of the sail relative to the board midjibe. In different wind strengths with different gear those will change. As soon as the rig begins to go light in your entry, start the footwork and sail flip. Stay smooth.
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Michael
http://www.peconicpuffin.com |
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