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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
As usual, talking points are provided as diversions from the man who lies dozens of times every day. The right ignores Trump's lies and pounces on mistakes that are, in the larger scheme of things, irrelevant. Trump did order the separation of children from their parents, to the disgust of most of the world. If the child on the cover of Time was not one of his victims--perhaps that is because Trump and his minions have desperately tried to keep reporters and legislators away from his little prison camps.

NW goes nuts when I make a joke about at least they're not building ovens or tattooing the kids. But he condones, or at least ignores, the multiple attacks on immigration--legal and illegal--and his use of the same propaganda techniques of the Nazi's. His neo-Nazi, Stephen Miller wants immigration of all kinds stopped, or at least cut in half. Trump lies about crimes committed by immigrants, he lies about the drug trade, he calls them "vermin" who "infest" our country, he makes bigoted accusations about American judges of Hispanic origin, and he uses children as bargaining chits for a symbolic wall that will have no effect on immigration.

Those seeking asylum are not "illegals", there are provisions for allowing them to immigrate if they have legitimate claims. Under an Obama program that Trump dismantled, 95% showed up for their hearings without being incarcerated. Those without credible claims were sent back. The rules of law which Trump has abrogated out of sheer meanness.

You're all wrong about nearly everything you've posted. But at least you have the Time cover and Trump's mendacity for solace.

Me and Nazis,,,,,, ESAD. Whenever anybody brings up Nazi or Nazi related stuff, it instantly becomes a throw-away, worthless, over the line comment. Dean and mac speak that language constantly here, making them both worthless commentators.

"Those seeking asylum are not "illegals", there are provisions for allowing them to immigrate if they have legitimate claims."

Only at formal points of entry, a pretty important distinction. All others are illegal no matter what kind of story they tell.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:
mac wrote:
As usual, talking points are provided as diversions from the man who lies dozens of times every day. The right ignores Trump's lies and pounces on mistakes that are, in the larger scheme of things, irrelevant. Trump did order the separation of children from their parents, to the disgust of most of the world. If the child on the cover of Time was not one of his victims--perhaps that is because Trump and his minions have desperately tried to keep reporters and legislators away from his little prison camps.

NW goes nuts when I make a joke about at least they're not building ovens or tattooing the kids. But he condones, or at least ignores, the multiple attacks on immigration--legal and illegal--and his use of the same propaganda techniques of the Nazi's. His neo-Nazi, Stephen Miller wants immigration of all kinds stopped, or at least cut in half. Trump lies about crimes committed by immigrants, he lies about the drug trade, he calls them "vermin" who "infest" our country, he makes bigoted accusations about American judges of Hispanic origin, and he uses children as bargaining chits for a symbolic wall that will have no effect on immigration.

Those seeking asylum are not "illegals", there are provisions for allowing them to immigrate if they have legitimate claims. Under an Obama program that Trump dismantled, 95% showed up for their hearings without being incarcerated. Those without credible claims were sent back. The rules of law which Trump has abrogated out of sheer meanness.

You're all wrong about nearly everything you've posted. But at least you have the Time cover and Trump's mendacity for solace.

Me and Nazis,,,,,, ESAD. Whenever anybody brings up Nazi or Nazi related stuff, it instantly becomes a throw-away, worthless, over the line comment. Dean and mac speak that language constantly here, making them both worthless commentators.

"Those seeking asylum are not "illegals", there are provisions for allowing them to immigrate if they have legitimate claims."

Only at formal points of entry, a pretty important distinction. All others are illegal no matter what kind of story they tell.


Remember NW.....you are dealing with a CRITICAL THINKER.....what an asshole.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 14838
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote






_________________
when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nw30 wrote:

"Those seeking asylum are not "illegals", there are provisions for allowing them to immigrate if they have legitimate claims."

Only at formal points of entry, a pretty important distinction. All others are illegal no matter what kind of story they tell.


One wonders how many seeking asylum are aware of where the ports of entry are, and how to get there. Never mind, when the object is to paint people fleeing violence as "infesting" our country, there isn't much room for anything besides talking points.

The Facts

Since 2014, hundreds of thousands of children and families have fled to the United States because of rampant violence and gang activity in El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. U.S. laws provide asylum or refugee status to qualified applicants, but the Trump administration says smugglers and bad actors are exploiting these same laws to gain entry. Nielsen says the government has detected hundreds of cases of fraud among migrants traveling with children who are not their own. Trump says he wants to close what he describes as “loopholes” in these humanitarian-relief laws.

The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.

Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.


Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.

When families or individuals are apprehended by the Border Patrol, they’re taken into DHS custody. Under the zero-tolerance policy, DHS officials refer any adult “believed to have committed any crime, including illegal entry,” to the Justice Department for prosecution. If they’re convicted, they’re usually sentenced to time served. The next step would be deportation proceedings.

Illegal entry is a misdemeanor for first-time offenders and a conviction is grounds for deportation. Because of Trump’s executive order, DHS can deport people for misdemeanors more easily, because the government no longer prioritizes the removal of dangerous criminals, gang members or national-security threats. (A DHS fact sheet says, “Any individual processed for removal, including those who are criminally prosecuted for illegal entry, may seek asylum or other protection available under law.”)

Families essentially are put on two different tracks. One track ends with deportation. The other doesn’t.

After a holding period, DHS transfers children to the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services. They spend an average 51 days at an ORR shelter before they’re placed with a sponsor in the United States, according to HHS. The government is required to place these children with family members whenever possible, even if those family members might be undocumented immigrants. “Approximately 85 percent of sponsors are parents” who were already in the country “or close family members,” according to HHS. Some children have no relatives available, and in those cases the government may keep them in shelters for longer periods of time while suitable sponsors are identified and vetted.

Adding it all up, this means the Trump administration is operating a system in which immigrant families that are apprehended at the border get split up, because children go into a process in which they eventually get placed with sponsors in the country while their parents are prosecuted and potentially deported.

This is a question of Trump and his Cabinet choosing to enforce some laws over others. The legal landscape did not change between the time the Trump administration released nearly 100,000 immigrants during its first 15 months and the time the zero-tolerance policy took effect in April 2018.

What changed was the administration’s handling of these cases. Undocumented immigrant families seeking asylum previously were released and went into the civil court system, but now the parents are being detained and sent to criminal courts while their kids are resettled in the United States as though they were unaccompanied minors.

The government has limited resources and cannot prosecute every crime, so setting up a system that prioritizes the prosecution of some offenses over others is a policy choice. The Supreme Court has said, “In our criminal justice system, the government retains ‘broad discretion’ as to whom to prosecute.” To charge or not to charge someone “generally rests entirely” on the prosecutor, the court has said.

Katie Waldman, a spokeswoman for Nielsen, said the administration does not have a family-separation policy. But Waldman agreed that Trump officials are exercising their prosecutorial discretion to charge more illegal-entry offenses, which in turn causes more family separations. The Obama administration also separated immigrant families, she said.

“We’re increasing the rate of what we were already doing,” Waldman said. “Instead of letting some slip through, we’re saying we’re doing it for all.”

Waldman sent figures from fiscal 2010 through 2016 showing that, out of 2,362,966 adults apprehended at the southern border, 492,970, or 21 percent, were referred for prosecution. These figures include all adults, not just those who crossed with minor children, so they’re not a measure of how many families were separated under Obama.

“During the Obama administration there was no policy in place that resulted in the systematic separation of families at the border, like we are now seeing under the Trump administration,” said Sarah Pierce, a policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute. “Our understanding is that generally parents were not prosecuted for illegal entry under President Obama. There may have been some separation if there was suspicion that the children were being trafficked or a claimed parent-child relationship did not actually exist. But nothing like the levels we are seeing today.”

Trump administration officials say they’re trying to keep parents informed about their kids.

But some families instead have wound up in wrenching scenarios.

“Some of the most intense outrage at the measures has followed instances of parents deported to Central America without their children or spending weeks unable to locate their sons and daughters,” The Washington Post’s Nick Miroff reported. “In other instances, pediatricians and child advocates have reported seeing toddlers crying inconsolably for their mothers at shelters where staff are prohibited from physically comforting them.”...

For Trump, the family-separation policy is leverage as he seeks congressional funding for his promised border wall and other immigration priorities, according to reporting by The Washington Post. Top DHS officials have said that threatening adults with criminal charges and prison time would be the “most effective” way to reverse the rising number of illegal crossings.

The Pinocchio Test
The doublespeak coming from Trump and top administration officials on this issue is breathtaking, not only because of the sheer audacity of these claims but also because they keep being repeated without evidence. Immigrant families are being separated at the border not because of Democrats and not because some law forces this result, as Trump insists. They’re being separated because the Trump administration, under its zero-tolerance policy, is choosing to prosecute border-crossing adults for any offenses.

This includes illegal-entry misdemeanors, which are being prosecuted at a rate not seen in previous administrations. Because the act of crossing itself is now being treated as an offense worthy of prosecution, any family that enters the United States illegally is likely to end up separated. Nielsen may choose not to call this a “family separation policy,” but that’s precisely the effect it has.
From the Washington Post.

from Vox:

Quote:
There are also some cases in which immigrant families are being separated after coming to ports of entry and presenting themselves for asylum — thus following US law. It’s not clear how often this is happening, though it’s definitely not as widespread as separation of families who’ve crossed illegally.


But I guess when you justify cruelty with biblicl quotations, you can be as mean as Sessions.

Of course he lied, and NW repeats it:
Quote:
By Robert Moore
June 13
EL PASO — Serbando Pineda Hernandez and his 15-year-old son, Riquelmer, were making their ninth attempt in as many days to reach the port of entry here and apply for asylum. As they approached U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers Sunday on the Paso del Norte Bridge, Pineda tried something new. He presented a handwritten sign saying they sought protection from dangerous gangs in their native Guatemala.

Joined by four immigration activists who helped create the sign, Pineda and his son straddled the boundary dividing Mexico and the United States. But their path was blocked by two officers who told them that the port of entry was at capacity and couldn’t handle asylum applicants. It was the immigration equivalent of a “no vacancy” light over the Rio Grande.
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It must really suck having a border, ay mac, you hate borders obviously.
In that last article you just posted those from Guatemala had their desired safety from the Guatelama gangs by being in Mexico.
But Mexico is never good enough for those who desire a borderless world, which is ironic in itself, isn't Mexico a safe enough place for those who travel thru it seeking asylum? No?
Then why would anyone want an open border with a violent country?
Idiocy again.
The wall is going up, mac's worse nightmare. Suck it up buttercup.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17743
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NW continues to manufacture fiction. I guess that Mexico is now a safe country, there are no gangs selling drugs and fighting for territories. And silly NW imagines that I don't support borders, and that the wall will affect migration. Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NW30, it seems to me like you want to forget that Donald Trump promised Americans that Mexico is paying for the wall along our southern border. I think that it's crystal clear to most of us that Trump hasn't made any progress at all getting Mexico's commitment to pay for the wall, and it's now his goal to walk back on his promise and stick it to the American taxpayer.

Yet, maybe I've got that all wrong, and you are fully against American taxpayers funding a wall along our border. Do you expect Trump to honor is promise without exceptions, and are you going to come out against him if he reneges on his word?
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nw30



Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 6485
Location: The eye of the universe, Cen. Cal. coast

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care who pays for the wall, some things are worth the expense,,,,,,, like positive control.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
nw30 wrote:

"Those seeking asylum are not "illegals", there are provisions for allowing them to immigrate if they have legitimate claims."

Only at formal points of entry, a pretty important distinction. All others are illegal no matter what kind of story they tell.


One wonders how many seeking asylum are aware of where the ports of entry are, and how to get there. Never mind, when the object is to paint people fleeing violence as "infesting" our country, there isn't much room for anything besides talking points.

The Facts

Since 2014, hundreds of thousands of children and families have fled to the United States because of rampant violence and gang activity in El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. U.S. laws provide asylum or refugee status to qualified applicants, but the Trump administration says smugglers and bad actors are exploiting these same laws to gain entry. Nielsen says the government has detected hundreds of cases of fraud among migrants traveling with children who are not their own. Trump says he wants to close what he describes as “loopholes” in these humanitarian-relief laws.

The Central American refugee crisis developed during President Barack Obama’s administration and continues under Trump. The two administrations have taken different approaches. Obama prioritized the deportation of dangerous people. Once he took office, Trump issued an executive order rolling back much of the Obama-era framework.

Obama’s guidelines prioritized the deportation of gang members, those who posed a national security risk and those who had committed felonies. Trump’s January 2017 executive order does not include a priority list for deportations and refers only to “criminal offenses,” which is broad enough to encompass serious felonies as well as misdemeanors.


Then, in April 2018, Attorney General Jeff Sessions rolled out the zero-tolerance policy.

When families or individuals are apprehended by the Border Patrol, they’re taken into DHS custody. Under the zero-tolerance policy, DHS officials refer any adult “believed to have committed any crime, including illegal entry,” to the Justice Department for prosecution. If they’re convicted, they’re usually sentenced to time served. The next step would be deportation proceedings.

Illegal entry is a misdemeanor for first-time offenders and a conviction is grounds for deportation. Because of Trump’s executive order, DHS can deport people for misdemeanors more easily, because the government no longer prioritizes the removal of dangerous criminals, gang members or national-security threats. (A DHS fact sheet says, “Any individual processed for removal, including those who are criminally prosecuted for illegal entry, may seek asylum or other protection available under law.”)

Families essentially are put on two different tracks. One track ends with deportation. The other doesn’t.

After a holding period, DHS transfers children to the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) in the Department of Health and Human Services. They spend an average 51 days at an ORR shelter before they’re placed with a sponsor in the United States, according to HHS. The government is required to place these children with family members whenever possible, even if those family members might be undocumented immigrants. “Approximately 85 percent of sponsors are parents” who were already in the country “or close family members,” according to HHS. Some children have no relatives available, and in those cases the government may keep them in shelters for longer periods of time while suitable sponsors are identified and vetted.

Adding it all up, this means the Trump administration is operating a system in which immigrant families that are apprehended at the border get split up, because children go into a process in which they eventually get placed with sponsors in the country while their parents are prosecuted and potentially deported.

This is a question of Trump and his Cabinet choosing to enforce some laws over others. The legal landscape did not change between the time the Trump administration released nearly 100,000 immigrants during its first 15 months and the time the zero-tolerance policy took effect in April 2018.

What changed was the administration’s handling of these cases. Undocumented immigrant families seeking asylum previously were released and went into the civil court system, but now the parents are being detained and sent to criminal courts while their kids are resettled in the United States as though they were unaccompanied minors.

The government has limited resources and cannot prosecute every crime, so setting up a system that prioritizes the prosecution of some offenses over others is a policy choice. The Supreme Court has said, “In our criminal justice system, the government retains ‘broad discretion’ as to whom to prosecute.” To charge or not to charge someone “generally rests entirely” on the prosecutor, the court has said.

Katie Waldman, a spokeswoman for Nielsen, said the administration does not have a family-separation policy. But Waldman agreed that Trump officials are exercising their prosecutorial discretion to charge more illegal-entry offenses, which in turn causes more family separations. The Obama administration also separated immigrant families, she said.

“We’re increasing the rate of what we were already doing,” Waldman said. “Instead of letting some slip through, we’re saying we’re doing it for all.”

Waldman sent figures from fiscal 2010 through 2016 showing that, out of 2,362,966 adults apprehended at the southern border, 492,970, or 21 percent, were referred for prosecution. These figures include all adults, not just those who crossed with minor children, so they’re not a measure of how many families were separated under Obama.

“During the Obama administration there was no policy in place that resulted in the systematic separation of families at the border, like we are now seeing under the Trump administration,” said Sarah Pierce, a policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute. “Our understanding is that generally parents were not prosecuted for illegal entry under President Obama. There may have been some separation if there was suspicion that the children were being trafficked or a claimed parent-child relationship did not actually exist. But nothing like the levels we are seeing today.”

Trump administration officials say they’re trying to keep parents informed about their kids.

But some families instead have wound up in wrenching scenarios.

“Some of the most intense outrage at the measures has followed instances of parents deported to Central America without their children or spending weeks unable to locate their sons and daughters,” The Washington Post’s Nick Miroff reported. “In other instances, pediatricians and child advocates have reported seeing toddlers crying inconsolably for their mothers at shelters where staff are prohibited from physically comforting them.”...

For Trump, the family-separation policy is leverage as he seeks congressional funding for his promised border wall and other immigration priorities, according to reporting by The Washington Post. Top DHS officials have said that threatening adults with criminal charges and prison time would be the “most effective” way to reverse the rising number of illegal crossings.

The Pinocchio Test
The doublespeak coming from Trump and top administration officials on this issue is breathtaking, not only because of the sheer audacity of these claims but also because they keep being repeated without evidence. Immigrant families are being separated at the border not because of Democrats and not because some law forces this result, as Trump insists. They’re being separated because the Trump administration, under its zero-tolerance policy, is choosing to prosecute border-crossing adults for any offenses.

This includes illegal-entry misdemeanors, which are being prosecuted at a rate not seen in previous administrations. Because the act of crossing itself is now being treated as an offense worthy of prosecution, any family that enters the United States illegally is likely to end up separated. Nielsen may choose not to call this a “family separation policy,” but that’s precisely the effect it has.
From the Washington Post.

from Vox:

Quote:
There are also some cases in which immigrant families are being separated after coming to ports of entry and presenting themselves for asylum — thus following US law. It’s not clear how often this is happening, though it’s definitely not as widespread as separation of families who’ve crossed illegally.


But I guess when you justify cruelty with biblicl quotations, you can be as mean as Sessions.

Of course he lied, and NW repeats it:
Quote:
By Robert Moore
June 13
EL PASO — Serbando Pineda Hernandez and his 15-year-old son, Riquelmer, were making their ninth attempt in as many days to reach the port of entry here and apply for asylum. As they approached U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers Sunday on the Paso del Norte Bridge, Pineda tried something new. He presented a handwritten sign saying they sought protection from dangerous gangs in their native Guatemala.

Joined by four immigration activists who helped create the sign, Pineda and his son straddled the boundary dividing Mexico and the United States. But their path was blocked by two officers who told them that the port of entry was at capacity and couldn’t handle asylum applicants. It was the immigration equivalent of a “no vacancy” light over the Rio Grande.



They know exactly where they are but choose to avoid them because their BS claims will be questioned. The liberal scum lawyers are teaching them how to game the system.
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mat-ty



Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 7850

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
NW30, it seems to me like you want to forget that Donald Trump promised Americans that Mexico is paying for the wall along our southern border. I think that it's crystal clear to most of us that Trump hasn't made any progress at all getting Mexico's commitment to pay for the wall, and it's now his goal to walk back on his promise and stick it to the American taxpayer.

Yet, maybe I've got that all wrong, and you are fully against American taxpayers funding a wall along our border. Do you expect Trump to honor is promise without exceptions, and are you going to come out against him if he reneges on his word?


They have offered 4 deals so far and the dems and a few republicans have stuck a fork in all of them. And yes the wall, E-verify and DACA were part of all of them.. The Dems don't want a deal, that is very obvious to anyone with a brain.
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