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kiethordrum



Joined: 12 Jun 2015
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:19 pm    Post subject: Sail Rigging..... Reply with quote

I was just told this......I would appreciate comments.....many sails made in last 4 yrs are designed to not have so much looseness in upper leech for high winds......but are sailed with slightly less than min downhall and only outhauled for battons to flip mast sides easy enough. With 12-36 inches of sail up against boom in high winds. ????
Ive been under the impression you could never have too much downhaul.....and the sail isnt designed to be touching the boom at all.
My 2015 three batten 5.0 wave sail felt absolutely terrible Sunday in 19-29 winds. 84ltr wave bd.....im 150lbs. I was told after, too much downhaul and outhaul.....and too big a sail.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19172

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rig tuning depends a great deal on each sail's brand, model, and materials and on personal preferences. Experiment.

Sail size depends on those factors plus personal preferences plus one's objectives for each session. People have long chided me for rigging big, but I have something like 20 reasons for doing so.

But if my sail feels terrible, I change something.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4487
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modern freestyle sails can be rigged leechtight, to use the smallest size possible to achieve planing.
Modern slalom sails should be rigged with max down, so the sail breathes off all excess wind.
For steady 20 mph breezes, an effective sail size range can vary from 4.2 freestyle and foil to 8.3 slalom race...or 11.5 for Formula.
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2244
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Sail Rigging..... Reply with quote

Hi Kieth,

Depends on the sail. The sails I ride for example don't rig with much
flop up top, but they haven't rigged floppy in the last 20 years of models.

Longboard sails typically rig with a tight leech. Modern Ezzys still
rig with a massive amount of flop, so do Neil Prydes.

I'm not sure what "Sailed with slightly less than minimum downhaul"
actually means if described by a sail designer. I mean, there's a
"minimum" downhaul the sail was designed for, and if you rig it less
than that, then you're outside the design parameters.

"12"-36" of sail up against the boom". That sort of depends on the boom
as well doesn't it? I've got some very narrow booms and some pretty
wide ones. I will say that I haven't seen any sail designs that would
typically have you bagging your sail over the boom, but 3 batten sails
(like the Taka) might use the boom as an additional structure for
sail stability. I'm not a big fan of this, and I use 4 batten wave sails,
but I know plenty of people on 3 batten wave sails who love'm (in waves).

You can definitely have too much Downhaul (and too much Outhaul).
If your sail is floppy clear down to the boom, and the middle battens
are pulled all the way off the mast, you've probably got too much Downhaul.
If you've then tried to flatten that sail out even more because you think
you have too much wind, and your sail goes board flat, you're going to
end up with a really twitchy gutless sail. On the other hand, if you rig
without enough downhaul, your sail is going to over power and the draft
will move around which will give your sail about a 2MPH wind range.

Also, some sails are really really mast specific. If you get the wrong combo,
you're not going to get very reasonable performance out of the rig no
matter how you rig it.

I find that rigging for a wide wind variation from gusts to lulls, my best
bet is to go with a lot of flop (near max downhaul) and a bit of belly
(less outhaul), but that might just be the way Northwaves behave the best.
At 190lbs on an 80 ltr board, I'm powered up about right in a ~24MPH
average wind (19-29 if it's an even distribution) with a 4.7 rigged mid way
on downhaul. 5.0 might be a little big for a 150 pounder, but I could easily
make that work in that wind range with my body and board. Just as a
data point, an old sail which appears to have little value, might be that way
because it has poor range. I've bought good sails at great prices (I bought
a 4.2 NW Surflight CSX almost unused for $75), but I know those sails well
since my quiver is all NW.

What make of sail was it? Many of the industry sail designers are really
personable and quite willing to answer rigging questions.

.04

-Craig




kiethordrum wrote:
I was just told this......I would appreciate comments.....many sails made in last 4 yrs are designed to not have so much looseness in upper leech for high winds......but are sailed with slightly less than min downhall and only outhauled for battons to flip mast sides easy enough. With 12-36 inches of sail up against boom in high winds. ????
Ive been under the impression you could never have too much downhaul.....and the sail isnt designed to be touching the boom at all.
My 2015 three batten 5.0 wave sail felt absolutely terrible Sunday in 19-29 winds. 84ltr wave bd.....im 150lbs. I was told after, too much downhaul and outhaul.....and too big a sail.
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1186

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sailing the 5 batten Ezzy Zeta. 5.8 to 4.2. These sails use less down haul than his past sails. BUT they require more positive out haul. I don't like my sails touching the boom so I always give them plenty of out haul. They work great that way. Also a strip of packing tape where the sail rubs can help to eliminate wear spots. Replace it often because it can be tuff to get off if it gets baked on...The newer Chinook booms have a wider tail piece to help with sail rub...
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5043
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Sail Rigging..... Reply with quote

kiethordrum wrote:
I was just told this......I would appreciate comments.....many sails made in last 4 yrs are designed to not have so much looseness in upper leech for high winds......but are sailed with slightly less than min downhall and only outhauled for battons to flip mast sides easy enough. With 12-36 inches of sail up against boom in high winds. ????
Ive been under the impression you could never have too much downhaul.....and the sail isnt designed to be touching the boom at all.
My 2015 three batten 5.0 wave sail felt absolutely terrible Sunday in 19-29 winds. 84ltr wave bd.....im 150lbs. I was told after, too much downhaul and outhaul.....and too big a sail.


HORSE berries , Each sail loft continues to produce different concepts. The entire “told this” sentence is full of generalities.
TOO much downhaul will kill the performance , doing this to a 3 batten sail is worse, they are sensitive to which mast, and how they are rigged , much more than a 5 batten sail. What is this sail ?

With wind from 19 to 29, that range defies what size is optimum, you rig for the gusts or lows, OR split the difference. 5.0 for 19 would be small, its closer to the 29 , but then too large, at 150lbs its 4.0–4.5 time.

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jingebritsen



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
Posts: 3302

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3 batten wave sails rely on lots of givens

steady wind
ideal wave and wind orientation
tuning
mast specifications

if one is sailing a flat water venue, all the cons in the classic pro vs con chart pile up far more noticeably than in waves.

are you sailing with onshore waves, cross shore, flat water? with the proper mast bend?

my tastes for wave sails tend toward the aerotech phantom i like mine to have lots of down haul, even with a skinny mast. and, not much out haul. my sails touch the boom to the harness lines, even when lit. that's how i like them.

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http://www.epicgearusa.com/
http://www.seanski.com/
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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 930

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's quite a bit of wind for 5.0. Generally speaking the downhaul adjusts how much pocket you want up/down, outhaul left/right.

I downhaul just enough for the wind so the sail doesn't pull me over from the top. The more you apply the more you bring the power down it also makes the sail flat so it becomes lighter but also loses support in the lulls.

The outhaul stiffens the foil and reduces the depth of that pocket. Then depending on year and model, settings need adjusting.

If a sail has fewer battens/shapeless battens the downhaul and outhaul settings become more critical because the line between baggy and flat is finer.

My personal experience between 4.5 and 5.0 is that I basically need at least medium downhaul for 5.0, while I can a have a minimum downhaul with 4.5 and even overpowered can manage (best with firm outhaul though).

In short, use downhaul to tune min sail support in lulls, outhaul to stabilize the pocket and fine tune power.

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capetonian



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1096
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you've already received good advice above. It sounds like the 5.0 was too big for you that day. I have a mish mash of different sail brands and styles from 3 to 6 battens, but generally I find every sail has a sweet spot for downhaul and downhauling past that point doesn't really increase the top end range. Once I've found the sweet spot on the downhaul then the majority of the of the wind range comes from the outhaul.
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capetonian



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1096
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jingebritsen wrote:
3 batten wave sails rely on lots of givens

steady wind
ideal wave and wind orientation
tuning
mast specifications

if one is sailing a flat water venue, all the cons in the classic pro vs con chart pile up far more noticeably than in waves.

are you sailing with onshore waves, cross shore, flat water? with the proper mast bend?

my tastes for wave sails tend toward the aerotech phantom i like mine to have lots of down haul, even with a skinny mast. and, not much out haul. my sails touch the boom to the harness lines, even when lit. that's how i like them.


I sail often with John. We have very different tastes. Laughing
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