Rant: Dealer markup on windsurf gear

[dmilovich]

All appropriate comments, particularly regarding lack of credit and need to not hold gear older than about 1 year. All affect the real markup shops make, which is barely enough to sustain some of them. Also very good comments on performance and quality for value compared to windsurf gear many years ago.

Here's an another interesting way to think about it - from the manufacturing side. Talking only boards here for now, and comparing them to another composites sporting goods product - snow skis, or snowboards, which are quite similar from a manufacturing point. I use the term "skis" but am including snowboards in the same term.

Priced skis lately? About 1/3 the price at retail of a windsurf board. Yet a pair of skis are about 1/4 the weight of an average windsurf board in materials. Yes, some of the materials are more specialized and expensive than windsurf materials. But skis have much less finished surface area or volume, meaning a lot more finishing and appearance costs go into boards.

Most importantly, skis are made in quantities of approx. 2-3 million pairs per year. Windsurf boards? I'm guessing about 1-2% of that number, or about 40,000-50,000 boards maximum per year. With SUPs and similar products, total board production is maybe double that.

Point is that the economies of scale for windsurf boards aren't there. Lots of automation in ski manufacturing, as you might expect. Skis are laid up and cured in under 10 minutes. Then automatically finished. I have personally seen a machine almost 100 meters long that takes raw newly molded skis in one end and spits out fully finished and waxed skis out the other end, ready for bagging. How much of a windsurf board is automated manufacture? Very little except perhaps the core shaping.

All this affects price drastically. So do other factors such as cost of molds and tooling, damage in shipping (not much of an issue in skis) and much higher cost of transportation to the final point of sale.

Yep, windsurf gear is expensive, but as others have pointed out, it's better and cheaper than ever. Entry gear in particular is really a good deal compared to the original Windsurfer I learned on. And I thank the shops that are still around keeping the stoke and personal service alive.

[Ugly_Bird]

[systemslib]

Buy sails in fall when they get discounted 15-20%+-. That is probably a fair bit of the dealer margin right there but that discount seems to get thing sold. Windance moves a fair bit of used gear like sails for decent prices. You can find sails there with low use for 40-50% discount to retail but since it is gorge focused it is rare to see much above 6.0 there.

[isobars]

When I buy from a shop, even one from whom I've bought loads of gear over many years (>30 in at least one case), I talk long and hard about features ... you know, the important stuff. Once I've decided to buy something, the rest of the process takes 30 seconds: "How much is it? Do you prefer check, credit card, or [if I'm prepared for it] cash?" They've floored the item, paid staff to advise me, provided very useful knowledge I can't readily get anywhere else, imported it, often offered an exchange if I don't like it and return it like new, let me substitute pieces (e.g., a WSing bar instead of a kite bar with a kite harness), helped me fit wetsuits, and more. Each of those adds significant value to my purchase; collectively they're worth a LOT more money than I could save via mail order or from some guy selling stuff from his garage.

I buy my new cars the same way, for the same reasons. I inquired with a big online buying service about a new Mustang set up and ordered exactly as I wanted, and within an hour got a call from a local Ford dealer. "We can't match the online price, but we can come darned close." He started to continue with his pitch, but I interrupted with, "Then let's keep the money in town."

"Are you serious? Nobody cares about that", he said. He was so surprised and pleased that he said, "Next Ford you want, call me. It's yours for the same deal: online price + $75." Months later I custom ordered and bought a new E350 van at his nominal* cost + $75. Dealer rapport matters. He gave me full access to thick notebooks the normal customer never sees, full of information on factory and dealer options bumper to bumper. I spent hours in a quiet room "designing" my new car and van, then ordered them in just minutes of his time. Ditto my next new car and my Winnebago.

* I don't care if he got dealer kickbacks from Ford; they're none of my business and are not available to me.

BTW, the other local Ford dealer wanted 15% OVER full list price for the Mustang.

Finding and getting to know a dealer you trust, whether it's shoes, boards, or cars, pays off in many ways. I'll accept a lower offer, but I would be embarrassed to haggle prices with a good dealer because he's earned his profits.

A bud successfully demanded that a local mattress shop (with a large display inventory we could test ride) match Costco prices. That mattress shop is now bankrupt. Does anyone want that to happen to their local dealer ... of anything that benefits from hands-on perusal and dealer knowledge? Would anyone actually dig through Barnes & Nobles' stacks, spend a couple of hours poring through several books to choose which ones to buy, then BUY THEM FROM AMAZON just to save a few bucks and expect B&N to keep their doors open?

SERIOUSLY?

Stuff costs what it costs, and it's up to dealers to tailor their services, stock their inventories, and decide their prices with an eye on the long haul. It's called capitalism, and nothing else works well for both sides. I bought a new board with my dealer's offer to exchange it if I didn't like it, then I called back in a few days and asked for a different size. He began to ask about its condition, but I interrupted him with, "No, let me clarify; I like it so much I want another one ... or two". I didn't haggle, but I gladly accepted an $1800 discount on them (it was after Labor Day). I probably spent that savings on my next dozen great boards, as it's easy to find flawless, often apparently unused, marvelous-performing boards from 6 months to 20 years old where I live, some even with factory warranties.

If we need to seriously complain about the price of something ... ANYTHING ... we should seriously examine our need for it, and that applies to everything from fins to homes.

[isobars]

[westender]

Buying new gear is optional for me. Other than sheet lines or repair parts I get by on well used things. I know most places don't have the great deals and supply we have around here.

[isobars]

But for the bigger-ticket items, we're just a phone call, an airplane ride, or a road trip away. Not everything here works in Arkansas or even Florida, but I got many thousands of hours of time on my Gorge gear in New Mexico, plus some in many other lakes from Florida to Ohio to Wyoming. I rode my 3.6 vastly overpowered in Utah long before I even heard of the Gorge, and probably owned and regularly sailed a dozen sinkers before I moved to the Gorge 16 years later.

[DelCarpenter]

Compared with average income I think windsurfing equipment is somewhat cheaper now than it was in the early 90's. (I'm not considering foils because they weren't available.) As I recall an early 90's Mistral Equipe cost $1995 while a same sized Bic Bamba cost $1795.

(I think I still have the March equipment issues of Windsurfing Magazine from 91, 92, & 93. I'll look them up if someone wants to know the price of a board or sail.)

[loopless]

[NOVAAN]

My lite wind board now is much shorter than my high wind board back in the day.
Spin out is a thing of the past. Anyone remember fore fins or slots. Tie on booms or clamp on that always slipped. Push button extensions that where frozen with sand. 10 sail quiver at every half meter. How about a chest harness. The first harness lines that would twist and get stuck in the hook. Just had to hope you weren't under the sail at the time. 20 plus lbs. board was lite. That said I did like some of the Bic boards. Boards had no pads.
No batten sails. How ever did we make it to where we are now? How did we survive that early gear. I must have been a lot tougher than I am now....