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Roller vs Hook
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18973

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can buy deeper rollers.

And I can't imagine any chop worse than that in in front of the dam at Conchas Lake, NM or the inside zone at Jones Beach, the Gorge. It in no way compares to swell. I've had it snap hooks, and the Corps rangers at Conchas used to set their lawn chairs out on the grass and watch us try to blast across it WFO. The ocean chop WAY off of Oregon or Kihei hasn't even BEGUN to compare to those inland spots on even the worst 2.5 to 3.5 days I've sailed all of them.

My problem with harsh chop is seeing, not staying hooked in, as long as I don't give the lines slack.
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westender



Joined: 02 Aug 2007
Posts: 1148
Location: Portland / Gorge

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They make a slalom roller and a wave roller. You shouldn't have a drop out problem using the slalom roller. I don't like the slalom roller. I'm constantly trimming my sail and I couldn't do that with a hook. My sailing shadow hates a roller. Says he can't crank on the rig with the roller. I told him he must have his lines set wrong but whatever he's doing it works. I think you'll be able to tell if your lines are in the wrong spot easier with a roller. YMMV try it and see. File the edges on the bar if you're cutting through the strap.
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I will say about the roller: I can't seem to master no handed sailing for more than a second or two. Maybe I just need to set my lines further apart.

I can't imagine foiling with a hook. Lots of guys talk to not wanting to hook up while learning to foil, but for me that made control far easier. Large sheeting angle changes are part of foiling.
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 967

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
The line can't drop out unless we give it slack by using our arms to sail, which wastes energy and endurance. Rider error, and a bad habit!

I get more than a decade out of a roller bar, and decades and counting out of lines, but for me that's a bonus, not a reason, for using rollers. The reason is vastly improved performance.

I can see liking a roller but I can't really see what it means or how a roller can "vastly improve performance". I doubt any PWA slalom sailor or speed sailor is using one, and the roller is not available for the vast majority of harnesses out there, which would happen if it "vastly improved performance".
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18973

PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please, guys, read the previous threads on this topic. I just don't have the time to re-type all this stuff. Just SEARCH on the words harness roller hook, check "Search for all terms", add author isobars if you want to start with my comments on it, and check "Topics" to focus on threads rather than individual posts. You should get about 15 such threads.

Here's just one of those posts, updated in [brackets]:

I will not windsurf without a roller bar, plain and simple. It is THE single most crucial piece of gear in my van. When Reactor quit making them a decade ago, I bought a lifetime supply (they resumed manufacturing them soon thereafter); they're that vital to my sailing. I see VERY few full-time gorge sailors using anything else; most people here using claws . . . er, hooks . . . just cruise back and forth and don't bother to trim their salis to achieve max power or speed or to maneuver. Harness line preservation is merely a serendipitous side effect (although it IS convenient to still be using the same harness lines for a decade).

Why so vital? SIMPLE: they do 95% of the work our arms would do without them. They transmit the sail POWER (the D.C. component of the load) to the board while our hands and arms supply only the STEERING (the A.C. component). Stone-age hooks feel like dump trucks with broken power steering belts by comparison, because changing sheeting angle requires using ones arm power to lighten the load in the hook so the line can slip, and anyone who doesn't change his sheeting angle isn't maximizing the available wind power (or hitting chop or maneuvering or steering or reacting to wind gusts and shifts or doing much of ANYTHING -- s/he's primarily a passenger).

Closely-spaced harness line mounts -- i.e., nearly touching -- achieve that to a lesser degree, but not, I don't think, to the degree needed in more dynamic shredding such as waves or powered-up swell-riding [or slashing and bashing]. I'll bet my roller gets quite warm as I see-saw my rig every several seconds from sheeted WAY out in a cutback to oversheeted in an off-the-lip, changing my direction through a range of 180 degrees (from 45 degrees upwind to 45 degrees PAST straight downwind) all while hooked in and maintaining maximum power, and I'm just on a LAKE (the Columbia River), not in real surf. If I tried that with a hook, it would require unhooking and using brute force arm power most of the time, tearing up my body and reducing my sailing time dramatically. CAVEAT: I have to admit I have not tried sailing with a hook AND with my harness line mounts touching each other. My line mounts [when trying that] are often just 2-3" apart, but then the loop is tougher to engage in rough water and I still appreciate the roller bar action.

IOW, I vote for roller bars. I haven't tried DaKine's version yet, because Ive been using the same Reactor bar since some time in the last century. [Ditto now for the Dakine roller bar that took me 10 years to snap.]

OTOH, I guess I'd better dig up a hook -- it's somewhere in the shed with my teak boom and football fin -- and see if Lee's approach works as well as technology for me. I'd still worry about boom point-loading in gusts or crashes if lines are attached too closely. but Lee has assured us it's not a problem among devotees. OTOH, he also sails efficiently (and in straight lines) at high RPMs -- i.e., with finesse, which suits his sailing style fine -- while I sail in crooked lines relying on sheer horsepower -- i.e., brute force, which suits my sailing style better. [Finesse is fine, and I often employ it, but I've always loved big engines in all my toys.]

So obviously preferences matter, too . . . but doesn't impact the 99% dominance of Reactor bars at my venues.


Maybe using roller bars is one reason I almost never have to come ashore because of fatigue, despite maneuvering incessantly under full power most of the time. My harness line and roller bar, rather than my upper body and arms, carry most of the load for me.

Freestylers? A whole different scenario.
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ss59



Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 67

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars, a couple of questions if I may about the value of a roller hook.....

I genuinely can't think of an occasion that I would consciously sheet out (before a hooked in jump maybe). Isn't the purpose of a harness to sheet in, I can't imagine being in the harness and wanting to sheet out.

I do, however, massively move myself and my rig in opposite directions (fore and aft not in and out) through manoeuvres, I can't possibly see how anyone could be hooked in with such a significant distance between the lines and the hook. I can't understand how "shredding" or "slashing and bashing" is possible without this very energetic (opposing) movement.

"changing my direction through a range of 180 degrees (from 45 degrees upwind to 45 degrees PAST straight downwind)" - does this mean you are hooked in while front to sail - how does that work?

these are genuine questions, and by no means criticisms, as I just can't get my head around what you are suggesting and as a result, why a roller is better than a hook.
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dcharlton



Joined: 24 Apr 2002
Posts: 358

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never had a hook break off a mile out, rollers on the other hand...not so much.

DC
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bred2shred



Joined: 02 May 2000
Posts: 959
Location: Jersey Shore

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcharlton wrote:
Never had a hook break off a mile out, rollers on the other hand...not so much.

DC


Iíve broken both. If youíre large and/or generally sail hard, make sure you use a stainless spreader bar (hook or roller). Aluminum will eventually succumb to corrosion and fatigue.

sm
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 3378

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ss59 said:
Quote:
I genuinely can't think of an occasion that I would consciously sheet out (before a hooked in jump maybe). Isn't the purpose of a harness to sheet in, I can't imagine being in the harness and wanting to sheet out.

Those of us that sail in gusty conditions are constantly sheeting in and out as the wind speed varies. Same with changing point of sail. Downwind - sheet out. Upwind - sheet in. All while hooked in.


Last edited by techno900 on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 18973

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ss59 wrote:
Isobars, a couple of questions if I may about the value of a roller hook.....
I genuinely can't think of an occasion that I would consciously sheet out (before a hooked in jump maybe). Isn't the purpose of a harness to sheet in, I can't imagine being in the harness and wanting to sheet out.
I do, however, massively move myself and my rig in opposite directions (fore and aft not in and out) through manoeuvres, I can't possibly see how anyone could be hooked in with such a significant distance between the lines and the hook. I can't understand how "shredding" or "slashing and bashing" is possible without this very energetic (opposing) movement.
"changing my direction through a range of 180 degrees (from 45 degrees upwind to 45 degrees PAST straight downwind)" - does this mean you are hooked in while front to sail - how does that work?
these are genuine questions, and by no means criticisms, as I just can't get my head around what you are suggesting and as a result, why a roller is better than a hook.


Even if your questions/comments were criticism, theyíre specific, valid, topical, and impersonal. There's nothing wrong with that.

For me, the purpose of hooking in is to let the hardware (harness and lines for WSing, like the drivetrain in a car) carry the power (the DC load, for the EEs here), leaving my hands and arms with little to do besides trimming the sheeting angle (i.e., carrying the AC ripple, assisted by power steering in a car). My harness lines are tuned to what Iíd call a neutral position, in that with no assist from either hand, Iím balanced in a beam reach Ö sheeted neither out nor in. A roller lets me stay hooked in -- with the harness carrying all the power -- as my sheeting angle ranges from out as far as my back hand can reach (e,g, in a hard swerve to weather) to sheeting in until the sail foot hits my leg (e.g., a max-g slash leeward slash). At full speed in busy terrain, I may transition throughout that range every 3-4 seconds -- sometimes more frequently -- clear across the river, leaving no time to get in and out of the hook even if I wanted to. Thatís also one reason I stay in both straps; my back foot does all the footsteering, and directional/rail-to-rail transitions are too rapid to move my feet around the deck even if I wanted to.

If Iím blasting along in a reach and want to turn downwind dramatically (slash) under power, Iíll rake the rig forward and into the turn as I oversheet, all to move the COE forward quickly and significantly. To slash upwind, Iíll rake the rig back and sheet out, probably also moving the mast upwind (itís all done by feel and to whatever degree is required with each such maneuver.) If I want to go somewhere upwind rapidly, Iíll do my best to lean forward of the mast while sheeted as required. That limits my forward movement relative to the rig, but only slightly, and it conserves my energy considerably in a long upwind rip. Running downwind under power, I vary my sheeting angle/angle of attack as required to maintain power as the momentary ambient and apparent wind speed and directions vary. As techo implies, the latter occurs (to a lesser degree) even in a steady course in good winds. The friction inherent in a loaded hook prevents most of that and at least impairs the latter.

I would guess you and I do similar things, but describe them differently, since itís all based on physics. Of course, a sailor can work the rig over a greater range unhooked, but it takes a big toll on endurance, muscles, and tendons. I may drag my boom on the surface in the tightest jibes or in a broad laydown since Iím already unhooked, but itís not necessary in directional changes over the point-of-sail range I mentioned above so I stay hooked in and let the power flow through the hardware ...

Ö right up to the point that a downwind slash or a powered-up downwind run carries my point of sail too far past dead downwind, i.e., into clew-first mode. When that happens, I do one or two things ASAP in self-preservation: unhook and/or or swerve the board back out of clew-first mode. Iím still engaged in both straps, and I like my ankles and knees too much to even think of sailing switchstance under power, especially hooked in.

I donít know what you mean by ďdoes this mean you are hooked in while front to sail - how does that work?Ē It sounds like sailing while facing the sail, which is normal. Maybe the term refers solely to sailing while facing the sail with it upwind of you and the wind hitting the far side of the sail, as in a heli-tack. I fully understand that freestyle and being hooked in are largely incompatible, but I didnít do freestyle in any of my sports even when I was young, and itís not an old manís friend.

I hope I clarified rather than compounded any confusion.

Mike \m/
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