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Long harness line users
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19215

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rtz wrote:
If you run long lines; do you like them because you can get lower, or because you can get further out from the board?

Do you feel like you can brace up against the pull of the sail better?

I know some use really short lines. I don't feel I could keep from getting pulled over if I ran such short lines.

If you switched to short lines; how do you think it would affect your riding?


I don't just think; I KNOW from years of very deliberate and extensive experimentation how it would affect my riding. I'm sure you've read the line length discussions, you've seen my ergonomic rationale for my line length personal choice, and you did start with "If you run long lines", but ...

1. I began decades ago with very long lines (up to 36") and have experimented with many lengths many times. As previous threads have made clear, my reasons for always returning to my present 24" has nothing to do with your stated rationale and everything to do with
what dllee wrote:
Line length is personal and affected by your wingspan.
I've seen it all across the spectrum, and anything from 20" to 34" can work well [since] WE come in different sizes and shapes and experiences,


what dhmark wrote:
I can not figure out how someone could use 30" lines for recreational sailing ...
I can't say my line length is preference, it's the only way I can get it to work, and


what akrausz wrote:
I like comfort based on arm length that makes board and sail trim easy.


We all have at least two options, including 1) blindly obeying the crowd's rules or 2) trying the crowd's rules as a starting point, then doing what works best for us after extensive, highly educated, and repeated experimentation. I don't have sufficient TOW to make all my WSing gear and technique decisions choices yet, and you sure as heck don't. Who would want to, given that it would mean we've stagnated? You're fortunate enough to learn something very new (to you) and very significant every day you sail; many of us are to the point that we seldom have such epiphanies. Two keys to that are pushing your envelopes and paying close attention to results. (A third is asking questions; I think you've mastered that one.
Smile )
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DanWeiss



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 2276
Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use adjustable Chinook Race Lines that extend to 33" when sailing my Kona One. I am not tall (5'6") but need most of that length when racing upwind in order to balance the sail's center of effort somewhere between my feet. Doing so applies the maximally available mast base pressure to engage the waterline while retaining the ability to feel the sail's center of effort moving. My harness is a seat harness with a medium hook height.

After using very long lines quite often for about 15 years (including FW racing) my preference is to avoid the short (24" or less) lines for any type of windsurfing. These shorter lines do allow for rig control if overpowered but tend to use the hammer-as-best-tool approach, muting my feel of the fin and sail. I prefer 26" fixed length but generally appreciate adjustability.

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DW



Joined: 15 Jul 2014
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long lines for racing came into fashion so many years ago, I canít recall anymore. Nevin Sayre (spelling?) was the guy I looked up to at the time, and that caused me to go longer, because he was longer than anybody.

It was all about keeping the rig upright, for maximum exposure to the wind. Maximum power. Body low on long lines for maximum leverage.

It improved my light wind efficiency greatly back in the day.

To this day, I believe excessively short lines are horribly inefficient. Guys on super short lines often are the ones that need to rig bigger than anyone else just to plane.

Of course today, things have moderated from those extremes.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4545
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen fast racers on long lines, medium lines, and short lines..and the winner is the one with a great start and doesn't make a dumb mistake or break down.
Glen McKinley was one of the fastest 175lbs. riders in the old days, who used 24" lines at 6' of height.
Jason Voss is another fast sailor using short lines. Lenghtening your lines will not allow you to ever pass them.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19215

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DW wrote:
Long lines for racing came into fashion so many years ago, I canít recall anymore. Nevin Sayre (spelling?) was the guy I looked up to at the time, and that caused me to go longer, because he was longer than anybody. <snip>
To this day, I believe excessively short lines are horribly inefficient. Guys on super short lines often are the ones that need to rig bigger than anyone else just to plane.

As I've mentioned here many times, Sayre retracted that advice many years ago. Ditto his historical disavowment of two-piece masts.

I don't give a hoot about efficiency, as defined by the ratio of sail size to windspeed. IMO, it pales in comparison to the 20 advantages to rigging big, not even counting its universal favor among Gorge racerhedz.
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DelCarpenter



Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 428
Location: Cedar Falls, IA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Kona's adjustable on the fly harness lines.

I'm not a consistent or efficient sailor. Don't know what harness line length I use the most, though I'm pretty sure no one would call them short. Except for my first harness several decades ago I've always used a seat harness. I've sailed since 1984 without "dialing in" any of my various equipment combinations. Saving my arms which gives me more time on the water, is the primary function of my harness lines. Getting some extra speed from additional mast foot pressure is just a bonus. I've always used some form of adjustable lines....even when the only adjustment came from changing the length of the space between attachment points on the boom.

By the way, the wind speeds I sail in aren't consistent either. Quite often I've used a 9.0 sail one day and a 5.0 sail then next day. Going where I want to go has alway been more interesting to me than maximum speed so more than 80% of the time I'm riding a long board.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19215

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DelCarpenter wrote:
Quite often I've used a 9.0 sail one day and a 5.0 sail then next day.

That sounds spectacular. Most windy days in NM see that range every minute or two, and far too many days in the Gorge experience it 2-3 times per reach, especially the past couple of years.
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kevinkan



Joined: 07 Jun 2001
Posts: 1559
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ride ~32"s, so I guess I'm a long line guy. I used to ride 18"s back in the day... I have neither grown taller nor arms gotten longer since then. Even w/ short lines, I was considered efficient.

I use long lines because I feel it lets me keep the rig upright for max exposure while letting me hike out and/or forward to leverage the fin/waterline. I ride with a highish boom, but still have plenty of room in the boom cutout to go higher. I'm about 6'1", 195lbs. I tend to rig my sails full and sail a size smaller. I feel a high boom gives me leverage over the rig and therefore gives it a lighter feel.

I borrowed a friend's rig w/ 26" lines, and I couldn't get planing early for the life of me. Also, when I traveled to Vietnam over the winter, I rented a rig w/ 28" and had the same problem. I guess I'm used to 32's now, and set in my ways.

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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 937

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Used 28-32 at 5'8". 28-29 seems to be my sweet spot since day 1.

Any shorter and I feel like I'd get launched so easily! Longer and I need wind as I need to stay more overboard in the lulls when it's medium to light.

I set the lines so I can lean out and drive most of the sail power through my hips and legs. I try using just my finger tips to control the variations of the wind that cannot be adjusted with lower body+hips.

When underpowered I lean back and out extending my arms, stiffening my legs. Trying to be as rigid as possible and head downwind in the lulls. Overpowered, I get closer to rig, choking it with the front hand if needed.

I realized my lines were too long at 30/32 when riding over disorganized water state, I'd have a hard time keeping tension in the lines. Again especially when not overly powered.

To me the key to go fast is to hardly use our arms and have tension in the lines at nearly all times.

For boards with wider tails, lines length and boom height may be increased.

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VinceSF



Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 244
Location: Marin County, CA

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kevinkan wrote:
I feel it lets me keep the rig upright for max exposure while letting me hike out and/or forward to leverage the fin/waterline.

I think this is more than a feeling...and more like basic physics.
I am 5.4 and use 28. recently, I broke one of my line and grabbed my old 26 as temporary replacement, So I currently use 26 on one side and 28 on the other. There's no way I'm going shorter than 28.
I think it is all about stance too. Old school guys tend to sail on their back leg, on the fin. new school is more upright.

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