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Trimming old sails for DH
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19299

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The luff length IS the recommended mast length. Your 490 implicates roughly a 30 cm/1 foot extension on your 460. You don't want any luff slack in those old sails.

By "adjustable or fully shortened top fitting", I mean a) can you adjust the amount of mast poking out of the top of your sail? and b) If you can, make sure it is 0. No point wasting mast protrusion when using any extension.
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
The luff length IS the recommended mast length. Your 490 implicates roughly a 30 cm/1 foot extension on your 460. You don't want any luff slack in those old sails.

By "adjustable or fully shortened top fitting", I mean a) can you adjust the amount of mast poking out of the top of your sail? and b) If you can, make sure it is 0. No point wasting mast protrusion when using any extension.


Got it. Thanks. I imagine this excessive mast extension has considerably affected the overall sail performance.

Thanks for your insight

Ittiandro
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19299

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
You don't want any luff slack in those old sails.

Correction: Luff or noticeable leech slack.
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WNDZRFR



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 86
Location: Greater East Bay Area

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a sail this old you can't do much more than just use your 460 mast + a 30cm extension. On a modern 6.2 sail the downhaul would be more like 446 with a couple inches of rigging leeway for conditions. You have a crazy tall sail! On the plus side you shouldn't feel to bad when you eventually bust through the mylar windows because then you can look for a more modern sail that will dump the wind when it picks up and keep you out on the water longer.

As Isobars said - make sure that where your mast plugs into the top fitting is flush with the top of the sail, most likely as close to the top of the sail as you can tighten it.

As for outhaul set it to the 190 then pull tighter if you feel overpowered.

Now get out on the water and beat the hell out of that sail!

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gerritt



Joined: 06 May 1998
Posts: 589
Location: Redwood City, CA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.ezzy.com/rig-support/ezzy-basic-sail-design-theory/
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gerritt



Joined: 06 May 1998
Posts: 589
Location: Redwood City, CA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted you the Ezzy link for theory and understanding of why a sail with lots of pull may not be the best at getting you going.

Modern sails and boards are designed to get going in less wind with less sail. This allows freedom of movement with less strain on your body.

I agree that if you are just starting out, the old sail you have will get you past first steps and you don't have to worry as much about falling through the sail. Even if you do, hopefully you did not spend too much cash to begin with. That said, hopefully, you do ruin that old POS pretty quickly and jump onto a new design. By new, I mean within the last 10 years. There are plenty to choose from on the buy/sell boards here, Craig's List, and Ebay. Most sails in the 5.5 or less range now rig on a 400 cm mast. Keep it simple and get a 4-5 batten, no camber, sail. A skinny mast is a good investment - they rarely break and are easier to rig.

Hopefully, you are riding a high volume stable board in the 100-115 range that will let you progress quickly.

After you have satisfied the "left brain" and read all about theory, let your "right brain" take over and just get out there and do it.
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shreddbob



Joined: 31 Mar 1987
Posts: 357
Location: Hawaii

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WNDZRFR wrote:


As for outhaul set it to the 190 then pull tighter if you feel overpowered.


Yes! Vintage sails like yours rely on outhaul mainly, to adjust for wind strength, much more so than downhaul. Modern sails rely mainly on downhaul (with much more downhaul tension than your sail), and fine tuning is done with the outhaul.
Also, keep in mind that the mast extensions available when your sail was made had very little mechanical advantage, so you could never pull too much on the downhaul. With a modern, high mechanical advantage, extension you need to be careful not to pull on the downhaul too much, because you may damage your sail. I know because I once tried to use a 1985 Gaastra Speed Slalom with a modern extension, and I ended up delaminating the mylar at the luff because it was so easy to accidentally pull the downhaul too much. I'd suggest just tensioning your downhaul (by hand, not using a tool) to be a bit past snug. Then play with the outhaul tension to adjust for wind strength. If you notice the sail has horizontal wrinkles in the window during wind gusts, then you should downhaul a bit more.
EDIT: My advice applies to the 1985 NP Garda sails that I rented from Hawaiian Island Surf and Sport, Maui, in September of 1986 Smile If this Garda sail is from the early 1990's then it may require a lot more downhaul to set correctly, but I can't say for sure as I've not ever tried that vintage of Garda.


Last edited by shreddbob on Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ittiandro



Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="gerritt"

That said, hopefully, you do ruin that old POS pretty quickly and jump onto a new design.

Hopefully, you are riding a high volume stable board in the 100-115 range that will let you progress quickly.

After you have satisfied the "left brain" and read all about theory, let your "right brain" take over and just get out there and do it.[/quote]

It doesn't look like I'll ruin that old sail so soon , though: if the sail is in such good condition after close to 30 years(!) either it has been used very little or it is a darn sturdy sail, no matter its archaic design.

I'm sure any newer sail I'll replace my Garda with when it eventually..croaks, will perform better, but how much better I'don't know...

The history of windsurfing ( which, being 77, I have followed for many years,) is dotted year after year with grand claims on behalf of the manufacturers that their product has undergone momentous innovations, amounting to a quantum leap, as it were, in performance and durability, but in reality so small, in most cases, .to be appreciated only by experts and racers .
For the rest of us it is busness as usual, with the difference that we ALL pay the price for the R&D and marketing spin behind what may be in many cases no more than reinventing the wheel or even a useless or faulty modification.

I really do hope that my Garda which I bought for ..$50 won’t croak too soon, necause I’d hate to have to disburse $ 800 for a sail, just because I’m caught in a lucrative manufacturers ‘s hype.

I read the Ezzy link .
No question that the Ezzy products are excellent. I had an Ezzy myself, years ago. Material wise. it looked terrific, like a bullet-proof armour, designed to resist a..shredder,( At the cost perhaps. I might add, of being a bit heavy. As to the difference with other cheaper sails I had, though, sorry, I cannot really tell.

When it comes to Ezzy’s innovations, as described in the link, ( the endobatten and doing away with the idea of rotational sails,) time will tell.
It is true that the innovations of creative minds are often due to seeing things that other people have missed, but if something as basic as rotational sails or full length batten, is so wrong, designers would have picked it up long ago..

Ittiandro
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 19299

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ittiandro wrote:
grand claims on behalf of the manufacturers that their product has undergone momentous innovations, amounting to a quantum leap, as it were, in performance and durability, but in reality so small, in most cases, to be appreciated only by experts and racers ... marketing spin behind what may be in many cases no more than reinventing the wheel or even a useless or faulty modification. ... I’d hate to have to disburse $800 for a sail, just because I’m caught in a lucrative manufacturers ‘s hype. Ezzy ... being a bit heavy. As to the difference with other cheaper sails I had, though, sorry, I cannot really tell.

Sails’ gains in top end stability in way too much wind HAVE undergone momentous innovations since the early ‘90s, but not for your stated purpose of casual cruising.

I don’t hold back on sail expenses. I try to buy the best new sails I can find (by my criteria) every year, yet I haven’t paid anything like $800. But then I have no use for pro-level race sails, either. My most expensive sail has been a previously owned but apparently unused current-year Sailworks Retro for half price. Besides, Archimedes, not you, supports the weight of your sails.

OTOH, $50 sounds more like the price of a 2010 sail, not a 1994 sail, so maybe yours IS modern.

Back when I tested sails (and everything else related to WSing), we weighed many sails out of curiosity. Ezzys’ weights ran mid-pack. It’s just as in politics, including “settled science”: ya repeat something often enough and gullible people start believing it.
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DelCarpenter



Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 433
Location: Cedar Falls, IA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Friends, it appears to me, we've been played. I think the playing was without malice, so hats off to ittiandro for a successful joke, and to us for responding to requests for help by trying to be helpful. (Or maybe ittiandro is suffering from memory loss.)

I was tricked too; so I googled "NP Garda sail" to try to find when they were made. One of the results that came up was a link to a 2015 iWindsurf forum: http://www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29477&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60&sid=c6abd2d3febe0e0c8ab1eb1aef7e985b

In the 2015 discussion started by another sailor, ittiandro was talking about a different NP sail and later said he was going to by an NP Garda 6.2 for $50. Then the discussion continued quite a few more pages with quite a bit of the same information produced in the current thread.
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