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Why a sail that pulls does not necessarily have power
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WNDZRFR



Joined: 28 Mar 2000
Posts: 86
Location: Greater East Bay Area

PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok it's on dllee, although the wind has been way better at PI this year because of Eddy I still hit up HLS on occasion, like today, but I didn't see you out there?

When you see any Loft sail with a Starboard Tiki logo on it (that isn't a foiler) that's me.

Feel free to pull up next to me anytime and we can see how fast your 5.3 is. A six pac says it isn't very fast!

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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask any of your PI buds, you're in for a loss.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5065
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can out shoot out ride out drink either of you
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can outdrink me for sure.
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johnarmitage



Joined: 10 Jun 2001
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a contrarian view. 6'5", 230lbs. Sail almost exclusively at TI. Speed, bump & jump, ferry wakes are the style, as with the other pipe jumpers. I'm notorious for rigging large sails, yet commensurate with my body mass and height. Height creates more leverage against the sail. For the discussion re: what to rig in 16-23 at Berkeley...you lost me at Berkeley as I would never sail there to begin with Wink. I will always choose the +3mph of wind at TI in exchange for its inherent dangers and longer drive. I would rig the 7.5 and likely my 130 liter board, the "Pig".

I always rig to the maximum downhaul and, mostly, outhaul. Why? That's what works the best for me. Maybe I've been condition by sailing TI and the need to rig larger for safety reasons, and the conditions drive me to flatten them for control. Instead of loosening my sail, I prefer to go to a smaller sail size, rigged fully tight. The alternative never works well. However, getting in and out at TI is so difficult, and the sailing area so vast, that downhaul experiments are hard. I sail 7.5 in 19-22 mph, 6.3 in 22-26, 5.5 in 26-30, and 5.0 in 30-35. Usage is about 15%, 60%, 22%, 3% respectively.

But I think it's something else also, hence my contrarian sail view: Larger sails for lighter winds, smaller sails for heavier winds, obviously, and every sail has range settings built in (downhaul range, outhaul range) less of each = more power, more = less power. I think these settings are more about adjustments for sailor mass than conditions. Given proportionally sized boards for two sailors, it takes more force to move the 230 lber than the 130 lber to the same board speed. So 230 needs a larger sail to generate the needed force. 130 on a 5.0, 230 on a 7.5. Obvious.

But with both sailing at the same boardspeed and windspeed, 230 is generating more force, transferred from the 7.5 sail through the arms, waist, feet, and mast foot than 130 is generating through the 5.0. Sail tuning is about preparing the sail to maintain the proper force...power...in varying windspeeds. When sails are overpowered their shape is distorted and they lose efficiency. Tighter rigging reduces this distortion. My point is that 230 will always need to generate more force in order to move, regardless of windspeed and sail size, and thus will always have a different effect on the sail than 130, causing the sail to always respond differently, and thus calling for the sail to be rigged at the tighter end of its range to minimize it's distortion and maintain maximum efficiency.
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U2U2U2



Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 5065
Location: Shipsterns Bluff, Tasmania. Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t do anything “exactly” the same when rigging.
I tend to use mod to max dh, and fine tune oh.

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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, remember Jeff Bayles?
At mostly 190 lbs., mostly on JP wave boards with 5.2 as his biggest sail, he was the fastest guy in North Bay from 1985 thru 2002, when he switched to kiting.
No small feat at his weight and sailing mostly Larkspur and R & G, and on plenty of days when wind failed to exceed 22 mph.
Remember, head twist sails started in 1986 ..Waddel sails from Trevor Bayliss..but he turned for wind conditions, not for sail design specs and almost always sailed his sails fully tight leeched
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuned, as in adjust.
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johnarmitage



Joined: 10 Jun 2001
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="dllee"]John, remember Jeff Bayles?

I never met Jeff, sounds impressive. The pro racers all seem to be built like tight ends, about 6'6" and 250lbs.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, didn't you start windsurfing in later '90's, like '97?
Jeff was king in Marin sailing, nobody touching him in speed or lay down planing jibes.
His reign got shattered when Victor Zuffla came up to Larkspur to sail with him. They were dead even.
Victor was my 3 times a week slalom training partner at Crissy. We'd drive to races together in the mid '90's.
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