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Foil faster than slalom
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
Small sample.
And manipulated data.

You are a bloody moron. There's absolutely nothing "manipulated" about the data. Just because you're slow on a foil and think you're fast on a slalom board does not mean it's true for everyone. Of course, your local freestylers on Slingshot foils and 4.0s in 15 knots will be slow!

If you had bothered to "do your research", that is click on the link in my original post and read the comments, you might actually learn something. Windsurfers were mostly on 7.7-7.8, wind was around 15 knots. For these conditions, 27 knots on a windsurfer is quite good. It takes a bit of skill to go more than 10 knots above the wind speed; the fastest windsurfer in the US, who's done more than 50 knots in Luderitz, says he's usually going about 9 knots above wind speed (less in strong wind).

The fast foiler was on a 7.0, and an NPF4, which is much faster than SS Infinities, with many sessions in the high-20s range reported.

Windsurfers could have gone with slightly larger sails and would have been a bit faster, but most recreational slalom sailors don't go much larger than 8.5. The PWA max is 9.5. The foil max is 10.0 for both IFCA and PWA, so the foiler actually had more room for sail size increases.

This is an example where one of the best speedsurfing teams in the world went out in moderate winds, and the fastest speeds were from a foiler. Many of the windsurfers in the team have sailed for decades, and foiled only for 2-3 years.

In light wind, windsurfers are already "no contest" to foils. Some events have used open formats for racing, for example allowing formula boards and foils, and foils have come out as winners. In strong winds, windsurfers are still faster, but that boundary is slowly moving up. With the PWA now adding slalom foil races, that will only accelerate.
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1222

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted a few months back about a fast foiler, at my lake pretty much being the fastest guy there that day. In return all I got from this guy was grief. He belittle the skills of long time windsurfer's. Said they were on junk gear. He wasn't even there. I ignore anything he posts. Who needs the negativity
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grantmac017



Joined: 04 Aug 2016
Posts: 826

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
Could wind speeds affect this?
Certainly, in 12 to 20, most windsurfers cannot maintain speed thru jibes at the lower end, yet go faster in the upper end,


And in 5kts a race board is faster, what's your point?

In 15kts foils are faster both straight line and VMG. Above that they still win for VMG.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only course race foils.
In 76-84, NaishWS-1, NP Glide, or any foil that foil jibes well are slow slow slow.
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1060

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wsatl wrote:
Red Bull Tarifa 2: First two places: windfoil Dunkerbeck sailed a splashy board and came in behind. Yeah, Costa-Hoevel and Kordel are PWA but Dunkerbeck still isn't a slouch on a slalom board. The foilers even beat a kitefoiler. Admittedly, female kiter so not as fast as top men but since kiters have been spanking windsurfers in most of these races in recent years, still notable.

https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboarding/kitesurfers-beat-windsurfers-in-red-bull-tarifa-2

Foilers may not have the top speed of the top slalom guys but aren't necessarily much slower in lower wind events. Foiling through a jibe and not having to worry as much in lulls is a big deal in real life speed not just a GPS event on a strip of dead flat water.


Another sign of how much of a game changer wind-foil is. And news like these happen just after two years of PWA level development!
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jump on that bandwagon!
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dvCali



Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 1060

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
Jump on that bandwagon!

It does not seem to be a matter of opinion that foils have an advantage in certain conditions ...

Max speed is only part of the equation, but while now foils might be slower I would not be surprised if 35-40 knots in open water will be the norm for advanced foil riders. Speeds that are simply not achievable with a regular windsurf.

Example: just yesterday Damien Leguen on a Zeeko aluminum foil got a rather stunning 32 knots over 500 meters. This in 16-18 knots, 2-3 feet chop, and a 6.3 (!!!!). Follow this thread at https://www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=118927.
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boardsurfr



Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 1210

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dvCali wrote:
Example: just yesterday Damien Leguen on a Zeeko aluminum foil got a rather stunning 32 knots over 500 meters. This in 16-18 knots, 2-3 feet chop, and a 6.3 (!!!!). Follow this thread at https://www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=118927.

That requires a few corrections:
- Speed over 500 m was 30.9 knots. The 32 knots were the top speed, which is not used in most serious speed events since it is the least accurate number.
- Wind was much higher: 15-25 knots
- He had "relatively flat water". In the picture, it looks very flat.

More than 30 knots on his gear is still impressive, and about twice as fast as typical numbers from an Infinity 84. But the venue seems quite good for speed - the same guy has a top 500 m entry of 37.8 knots on "PAV FUN" (a shortboard, I assume).
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wsatl



Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boardsurfr wrote:
dvCali wrote:
Example: just yesterday Damien Leguen on a Zeeko aluminum foil got a rather stunning 32 knots over 500 meters. This in 16-18 knots, 2-3 feet chop, and a 6.3 (!!!!). Follow this thread at https://www.windsurfing33.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=118927.

That requires a few corrections:
- Speed over 500 m was 30.9 knots. The 32 knots were the top speed, which is not used in most serious speed events since it is the least accurate number.
- Wind was much higher: 15-25 knots
- He had "relatively flat water". In the picture, it looks very flat.

More than 30 knots on his gear is still impressive, and about twice as fast as typical numbers from an Infinity 84. But the venue seems quite good for speed - the same guy has a top 500 m entry of 37.8 knots on "PAV FUN" (a shortboard, I assume).


Up to that point, he had been within 4 kts of the top results for the year. The recent result is a 3 kt kick up from level for most of the previous year. Speaking of conditions, I'm sure Lorenzo had nothing to do with it. Wink The top two windsurf results are shared by the same two who have the top foil results as well.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 4588
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't be a backseat driver, Dav.
Go out and foil!
I'm thinking of buying the KS -2 front wing for my Naish setup.
Been seeing a bud on the 600 sized front wing go pretty fast lately.
And Boardsurfer"s postings of actual results in controlled conditions.
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