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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9118
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
mrgybe wrote:
Predictably, Berkeley dismisses any analysis that doesn't coincide with his biases. I repeat, the analysis I quoted was from the comments section of the WSJ. If he believes the statistics are inaccurate, let him rebut them with facts, not name calling. Perhaps he doesn't believe this either.......

ws/developing-countries-pay-environmental-cost-electric-car-batteries


Another dodge, another name-calling complaint about name-calling. Mr buggy whip did not cite his source, which comes verbatim from the Manhattan Institute from last June. The Koch's are major funders of that organization. As I said, the numbers are taken out of context, and without context are intended, and serve, as propaganda for the oil industry. Could a better context be provided? Without doubt--but don't expect one from the oil apologists.

One of the shortcomings of the screeds about batteries is any understanding that we are in the early stages of battery technology development. The fiscal pages of most newspapers are filled with news about different approaches. Anyone who thinks that batteries will remain as they are now, with so much investment in electrical cars happening in so many countries, probably should keep their shares of Amazon and Apple. Things will change. But talking points will still be posted.


That's right. Things are moving fast and tens, if not hundreds of billions of dollars are being poured into the industry.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler asked:
Quote:
So, do you believe that increased battery manufacture will never lead to any improvements in cobalt mining, battery manufacture, or any decrease in the negative affects and dangers to humans involved in its extraction of minerals and their refining?


In the Democratic Republic of the Congo - no. Apparently they don't have enough MAN power now, so with higher demand - guess what?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In the Democratic Republic of the Congo - no. Apparently they don't have enough MAN power now, so with higher demand - guess what?"


And, the battery manufacturing industry or anyone else can never change that, right?

You're seem hopelessly mired in an ugly world that can't or won't change into the future. I'm thinking that everything that i said in my earlier post really doesn't register and compute with you. Your mind seems to be very closed and made up.


Last edited by swchandler on Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17744
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's amazing how Republicans have discovered poor working conditions in other countries--after Republicans have moved their supply chains to those areas. But ranting about batteries with Koch talking points is just fretting over the declining sales of buggy whips. Things are happening.

Quote:
Over the past decade, prices for solar panels and wind farms have reached all-time lows. As the saying goes though, the wind isn’t always blowing and the sun isn’t always shining.

The question of how to “firm” renewables — that is, ensuring there’s always enough saved energy no matter the time of day or weather — is one of the biggest challenges in the industry. We need a good way to store energy for later. The go-to option right now is lithium ion batteries.

But, though lithium ion is dropping in price, experts say it will remain too expensive for most grid-scale applications. Right now, lithium ion batteries just can’t store more than four hours worth of energy at a price point that would make sense. Plus, they pose a fire risk and their ability to hold a charge fades over time.

Companies are experimenting with a variety of different solutions, including flow batteries, thermal batteries, and gravity-based systems. If any of these player can crack the code to long-duration energy storage, renewables like wind and solar will finally be able to compete with fossil fuels.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/13/lithium-ion-batteries-heres-whats-coming-to-replace-them.html

You can find lots more. I actually trust science and American ingenuity to move the technology forward--and rich businessmen to outsource it to other countries and blame Democrats.

Meanwhile, bud break on my wisteria was yesterday--2 days earlier than last year. More systematic studies have been made, this from American Scientist:

Quote:
As we expected, warming spring temperatures have primarily driven this change over time. In Concord, plants leaf out five days earlier for every 1-degree-Celsius increase in average temperature during the spring months of March and April. Plants are now leafing out earlier than in the past, because temperatures in metropolitan Boston have warmed by about 3 degrees Celsius over the past 160 years. Looking at particular species, we have found that woody plants that leaf out earliest in the spring, such as highbush blueberry, are the most sensitive to rising spring temperatures and have shifted their leafing-out time the most; species that leaf out latest, such as silver maple, are the least sensitive and have changed their leafing out time the least.

Eighteen days may not seem like a whole lot, but it can make a big difference for other plants and animals that depend on the appearance of these leaves, and whose schedules may not have shifted in the same way. Eighteen days can mean the difference between a young caterpillar eating tender young leaves or encountering older and tougher leaves, for example. In turn, the health and very survival of those insects are important for birds and other insectivorous animals. If the spring activity of these groups becomes asynchronous, this can limit food availability and lower survival and reproduction for one species or another.


Plants pay attention to the climate--not talking points from oil company apologists.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20935

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mauiguy wrote:
I like facts, and think they should be the starting point for any intelligent discussion. The prior poster ignored facts. This needed correcting.

Why are so many people so shy about specifying whom or what they're talking about? In case "prior poster" means moi -- isobars -- why not just say so and avoid a lot of confusion? I, for one, got my information from Texas power grid officials being interviewed. The agreed that wind power constitutes about a quarter of their power, but said its failure dragged the entire grid down with it.

If I had nothing more to do with my time, and if the cause were useful information to me, I'd spend the next few days examining the accuracy of his, your, and my own statements. My neck of the woods (the PacNW) is choked with wind turbines, and I couldn't care much less about the esthetics. In fact, they help us anticipate and observe changes in wind speed and direction while rigging and sailing. I'm more dismayed about people such as J64TWB mocking* victims facing no power, no heat, no fuel, deaths, etc. in meat locker temps for days on end.

* Or whatever the hell his "tear down the windmills because of 6" of snow" meant.

Regardless, I have to roll my eyes at orders to Houston residents to boil their drinking water. Um, how? Chop down trees in all the forests to build fires? Outdoors, of course? Rolling Eyes
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, Ever wonder why wind turbines work in Iowa, North Dakota, Indiana and Finland but not Texas?
https://youtu.be/SUea-PKMM3A
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vientomas



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 2343

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
Millions of Texans are without power, the death toll is rising, surgeries are being cancelled, gas pumps and EV recharging stations are belly up, etc. because their frozen wind turbines have shut down the power grid ... and more of the same or worse is on its way. Let's face it: until we have much better regional-level electrical power storage capability, our most reliable energy sources are hydro, nuclear, and carbon. This entire concept must advance at a pace determined by science, technology, and profitability, not executive orders, The Squad, and John Kerry.


WRONG!!!!!

Texas has promoted the development of wind energy over the past 15 years.

And on average, renewable energy sources - mostly wind - account for about 20% of its electricity supply.

But the largest proportion comes from fossil fuels, as well as 10% from nuclear.

On Tuesday, the state's principal energy supplier, the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas (Ercot), said the freezing conditions had led to:

30GW being taken offline from gas, coal and nuclear sources
a 16GW loss in capacity in wind and other renewable energy supplies
And this, it said, had severely curtailed its ability to satisfy a peak demand of 69GW over the past few days - a surge even greater than anticipated.

In its plan for an extreme winter weather event, Ercot says it expects only 7% to be provided by wind energy.

The company's Dan Woodfin said: "It appears that a lot of the generation that has gone offline today has been primarily due to issues on the natural gas system."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-56085733
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J64TWB



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isobars you need to stop watching Hannity. Your brain is turning to mush. From Kvue in Texas.

https://www.kvue.com/article/news/verify/texas-power-losses-all-energy-sources/507-ee6e6a8a-18a8-4fbc-8f9d-6c2012c81e65
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9118
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The turbines have actually outperformed this week. The complete opposite of the false narrative that ISO-wrong is posting.
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SAS



Joined: 18 Feb 1997
Posts: 177
Location: planet earth

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:
mauiguy wrote:
I like facts, and think they should be the starting point for any intelligent discussion. The prior poster ignored facts. This needed correcting.

Why are so many people so shy about specifying whom or what they're talking about? In case "prior poster" means moi -- isobars -- why not just say so and avoid a lot of confusion?

If I had nothing more to do with my time, and if the cause were useful information to me, I'd spend the next few days examining the accuracy of his, your, and my own statements. ? Rolling Eyes


TO ISOBARS:
your reply complaining that I called you a "prior poster" rather than by "isobars" was lame since the first line in my post quoted you directly and identified you by name. Only later did I call you a prior poster.

This makes it clear to anyone except someone of extremely low intelligence that the prior poster was ISOBARS.

Of course you deleted your "prior" post once I pointed out your lie or error, so the post I wrote doesn't refer to the "prior" poster anymore. Is it your pattern when caught posting falsehoods to simply delete them and then complain about the person who pointed out your your lie or error? I note your reply never acknowledges your lie or error.

Also, you can verify the accuracy of my post in a minute or two, probably less time than you spent writing and deleting your post that I responded to. If I posted a lie or made an error, I'd care enough to find out the truth and if I was wrong I'd own up to it. It's called "honor."
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