Harnesses and PFDs/Vests

[marcsherman]

After separating a rib, I am thinking about getting a PFD. How do you use a waist harness when wearing a PFD? Which PFDs are best suited to windsurfing?

[gemoore]

There are a variety of PFDs made mainly for kayaking that have big arm holes and high bottoms. These are a probably a better choice than a regular Class III PFD. There are some waterskiing vests too, that work OK. The USCG has a class (V?) for special purpose PFDs, including windsurfing, but Ive never seen such a jacket. For sources, try any of the online shops if you dont have a local one. The only down side is that the better specialty jackets are pricey ($50-100 range).

The harness lines sometimes interferes with the securing straps, which is a bit of a pain. You can try having the straps above and below the hook, but sometimes the lower strap interferes when hooking in. A variety of jury rigs will circumvent the problem (leave the bottom strap undone, or above the hook), but the wisdom of wearing an incompletely secured harness is perhaps doubtful.

GEM

[isobars]

I have yet to find a flotation vest which does not intefere with a waist harness. But I sink without a flotation vest (not a PFD), and I demand rib protection, so I use a Surf Seat harness with any of the slim float vests that dont interfere with swimming horizontally or vertically, such as the Zeiner, Da Kine, etc. Every kayak vest I ever tried interfered.

Mike \m/

[gemoore]

Well, perhaps you could learn to improvise, like a bonafide sailor. I use an ONeill Outlaw, a DaKine waist harness, and they work fine. One strap goes above the hook, one below. With a Kokatat dry suit underneath, there is some interference that comes from the zipper, but this to can be avoided with a little attention when putting it all on.

I have not personally used a kayak vest, but have observed that many windsurfers use them. If someone wants a real PFD, not a merely flotation vest, then the kayak vests are the best solution Ive seen. My main point is that the floatation vests are NOT PFDs. For someone looking primarily for safety, your advise is not adequate.

GEM

[marcsherman]

My main interest is to protect my ribs but still be able to use my waist harness.
I do not really care if I wear a certified pfd or what you guys are calling a flotation vest. Until now, I did not know that there was a difference. I will look into the Oneil vest.
Given that objective, does anybody have any reccomendations?

[isobars]

I bought an ONeil vest. Im still cutting wide swaths off the bottom in an attempt to get it the heck out of the way of my Surf Seat hook. In the meantime, my much lighter, slimmer, Zeiner works great. I also just found a float vest (the difference is in the quantity of flotation, and I dont need a legal PFD either) by Prolimit which looks promising. Their site is www.prolimit.com, and Windance in Hood River carries them. Lots of protection, no swimming interference, and the highest waist Ive seen yet.

Mike \m/

[gemoore]

The Prolimit shows some pretty nice stuff, but the vests havent been added yet. Will keep checking.

FYI, Marc, in many - perhaps most - areas of the USA, states require the use of USCG-approved PFDs (so-called life jackets, but the Coast Guard doesnt like that terminology and most manufacturers shy away from it because it implies it will keep someone from drowning). PFDs are rated by age/size, and have been tested to have enough floatation to keep an unconcious person with their head, face up, above water. This means theres a lot of floatation in the front of the vest, right where your hook goes. This is probably why Mike doesnt like them (me either), though there are some newer designs that seem a bit better. The floatation vests were talking about are not USCG-approved as PFDs, and dont have enough floatation to keep someones head above water. Get knocked unconscious wearing one of these, and youll drown. Astute police/USCG know the difference between floatation vests and PFDs, and can throw you off the water and/or fine you if youre caught wearing one where a PFD is required. I have heard of people getting in trouble, but that was word of mouth.

Like Mike, Ive performed surgery on some of my vests. The Outlaw is OK for my purposes, but Ive been tempted to modify the straps. What we really need is a vest-harness, designed for windsurfing.

GEM

[prev1]

What Im interested in is the comment that a pfd is required in many states. I was not aware of these rules. I live in CT but sometimes sail in NJ and recently in Aruba and USVIs. I cant remember seeing people wearing pfds at any of these locations. Are there many examples of people getting hurt/killed windsurfing? How does one get hurt? What do they hit? I have been launched over the front end on occassion and generally hit my back and then head on the water. In neither of these cases would impact cushion have helped. What do your ribs hit and how? Please advise

[isobars]

The few deaths were primarily hypothermia. Dressing for extended dunking would have prevented most of them.

Helmets with face guards would have prevented the many (but low pecentage) cases of:
being knocked unconscious;
broken teeth, jaws, skulls, eye sockets, and noses;
thousands of painful lumps; and
many smashed lips. They also bolster confidence in trying advanced moves.

Rib protection, whether from PFDs or flotation vests, prevents many bruised and broken ribs, helps waterstarting, gives sailors more self-confidence to try higher speeds and harder tricks, and aids swimming (if designed to allow unimpeded swimming) when equipment breaks.

All the above reduce the risks of pain, expense, ruined vacations, lost shred time, lost seasons, skin cancer (the only cancer on the rise), disability, swapping gray matter with the water, with no disadvantage except too much flotation in big surf.

I dont sail without all the above, simply because every piece has prevented injury on several occasions, ranging from many busted lips to certain eye socket destruction (twice) to possible death (blow to temple stunned me through helmet).

What do we hit? We hit our own gear (booms gets lots of ribs), the other guys gear, the state of Washington (shoreline boulders) on a screaming beam reach, bobbing logs, barges, ships, 100-ton log jams, floating inflated tires, live bodies (was there when a board speared and crushed a skull), dead bodies, the water flat on our backs from 30 feet in the air (ruined his Maui vacation), reefs, tow cables under millions of pounds of tension, stumps, barely submerged rocks and concrete picnic tables, barbed wire fences, whales, turtles, cabin cruisers, PWC, your own board from altitude, other boards descending from altitude, fins (anybodys), masts (anybodys) ... just for starters, and just the stuff Ive witnessed or been near. If thats a statistically sound sample, its a JUNGLE out there, and I dont plan to sacrifice one minute of sailing time to any easily preventable injury.

I draw the line at combat boots, and that cost me a whole summer in the Gorge when I broke a toe watertarting.

Mike \m/

[gemoore]

As a sports medicine doc, I couldnt agree with Mike more. Statistically, windsurfing is pretty safe. It is, nonetheless, an activity that makes you vulnerable.

The only beef I have about windsurfers is that theyre like PWC drivers in that few of them observe the maritime rules of the road. This makes them dangerous to others. I was sailing along on a 7.0 day, on a closing course with some guy, and he got launched for no apparent reason (no gusts anywhere). His mast tip landed about 3 feet from my front foot.

Have seen/heard of bad things like Mike reports, and have had close calls like that above. Why play risks?

To answer one of your questions, state laws regulate the use of PFDs, because they are state waters. The USCG enforces local law. Sailboards are technically classified as water toys by the USCG, so this is the class of marine vessel under which you are regulated. Aruba is not the USA - never been there, have no clue what their laws are.

Last point, not made by Mike, is that the range of closing velocity for two windsurfers on opposing tacks is nominally 40 to 80 knots. If you hit someone head on at this amount of momentum, what makes you think youll be conscious? Alive? Given that you know *absolutely nothing* about the sailing skills of this person headed toward you, what assures you that YOU wont be in such an accident?

Sail safe. Have fun.

GEM