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Wind on the Nile
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Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16264
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are a pathetic Obama hater bard. And neither you, nor any of the righties have told us what "winning" looks like. After all, the neo-cons were too uninformed to realize there were 2 sects in Iraq that didn't get along. But maybe you can put your balls where your mouth is, and sign up for the marines. Yee hah! We'll let you fix it.
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Joined: 12 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevenbard wrote:
If you call murder with remote drones leadership, it is not. ... We lost a lot of Americas best over there, for what? Only to let the Shiite minority hook up with Irans shiite majority? What kind of leadership is this? Bush and Obama are both to blame, but it's obama's fault if this fails now.

Yes, it is. And I doubt it's an IF, but a certainty. But the policy of using more drones and spooks with fewer hordes of boots on the ground makes a lot of sense to me ... largely because many of our greatest military minds have been strongly pushing for that paradigm for a decade in this type of decentralized, asymmetrical, "nationless", widely scattered warfare. Our drone capability has advanced very significantly since this war began, so O has that technological advantage over W, and of course one can't win it all from the air as Rumsfeld would have liked.

But "Murder"? I don't see that. Terrorists in general and the big-name terrorists in particular meet all the accepted criteria of enemy combatants, and are thus fair game for forceful removal from the battlefield. The were all offered many chances for surrender, for civilian or military trial, and/orfor peaceful retirement for people like Ghadaffi if they would vacate, but they all chose and vowed to keep fighting, to remain in battle. That, their continued threat to the free world, and several other specific criteria win every one of the many legal debates I've watched on the issue.

And, ya know, at some point with many of these individuals, I've got to admit I don't give a damn. A terrorist -- they're not "men"; that elevates them to the status of human -- who targets civilians by the hundreds, thousands, even hundreds of thousands, often his own people, needs to be dealt with in terms he and his ilk understand. Trials and executions make them martyrs -- heroes -- whereas Ghadaffi's demise gets a point across and denies him the exaltation he might have garnered from some twisted corners of the world.

Would any of you prefer that Bin Laden had gone to his 72 virgins as a glorious martyr for all of radical Islam rather than as a cowardly POS with his head blown apart?

From here forward, which is a better way to fight asymmetrical war against terrorism ... with thousands of lives and tens of thousands of limbs or with drones and spooks? Candidate Clinton said three years ago that when she's elected we will take this war to every country on earth that contains terrorists (protecting us IS, after all, a U.S. president's sworn prime directive). The only way to do that is with force multiplication such as that provided by technology, special forces, air power, etc.; we sure as hell can't "go to war" in the classic sense with the hundred or so nations where active radical Islam terrorists live and operate.

These guys though Bush was as weak as Bill Clinton because the biased media said W was an idiot. Result: we got 9/ll, and Al Qaeda got their butt reamed. These guys thought Obama was weak because he grovels to Islam and has turned his back on Israel and the U.K., and we got derision from both radical Islam and most of the world's free and tyrannical leaders alike and barely averted -- thanks to the worldwide alert and tactics that emerged during W's administration and were continued and/or expanded once Obama realized how vital they were.

I say bring the drones on, with a few checks and balances. The primary reason it's taken this long to bring them up to speed and into the forefront has been turf wars in the Pentagon; a bunch of men who once wore flight suits insist that there must be a man in the cockpit because it's all they know. Hell, if there weren't age limits on those dudes, some would be demanding horses and cannons.

Why throw lives and limbs into the fray unless only flesh and blood can achieve a specific mission, and why throw a battalion at a problem solvable with a few spooks? The spooks we sneaked into Mexico to save that west coast football game from WMD (if you haven't heard about that, it's because YOU WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO; THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF COVERT OPERATIONS!), the countless spook intrusions into Laos during Viet Nam, and the thousands of spook operations in these present wars have done so much more per capita at risk with far less enmity than open invasion can do.

If we can keep blasting these POS into red vapor clouds without a millisecond's warning and no martyrdom, some of them will think twice about attacking U.S. citizens and many more will be unABLE to attack U.S. citizens. A drone is just a very expensive bullet, after all, and risks far fewer civilian and U.S. soldiers' lives than an invasion.

Isn't that a GOOD thing?
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Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isobars wrote:

These guys though Bush was as weak as Bill Clinton because the biased media said W was an idiot. Result: we got 9/ll, and Al Qaeda got their butt reamed.

Result: Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld attacked the wrong country for the wrong reason -- and left Obama with an ungodly mess.

Bush said, in effect, "Osama bin Who? I don't really know where he is, and I don't care."

Yeah, that's showin' 'em, Mr. Prez. A real butt reaming. OBL laughed his head off until Obama shot his head off.

Bush was and is an idiot. The neocons used him.
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Joined: 11 Nov 1993
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obama's plan is working perfectly. Libya declares sharia law today, egypt is close behind. Syria is out of control and probably will attack Israel when Assad is backed up against the wall. Christian Churches continue to burn.

Ahhh, Obama's arab spring in full bloom. Can't wait to see his next plan of attack....Shall we bomb Africa or Korea?
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Joined: 07 Mar 1999
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Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Not too long ago the righties on the forum lambasted Obama for his taking Netanyahu to task for his complete resistance to any peace effort, and said, as had previous presidents, that the 1967 borders should be the starting point for negotiations. He was attacked by all of the righties here, as naive (mrgybe's favorite aspersion), stupid, or a traitor. Some of the more moderate members even wondered if appeasement might be involved.

For those of you who like your analysis complete with an editor and fact checker, you might be interested in the June 6 New Yorker's article: I know, it is impossible for the righties to read anything that comes out of New York, wasn't sent to them by an approved conservative web site, and involves an organization like the New Yorker that is part of the liberal conspiracy. In fact, for some reading an article rather than an attack blog might be a challenge.

I was chided for making this a matter of more of the same orchestrated right wing attack politics--but then how do you explain Netanyahu's invitation to speak before Congress?

Of course one of the backdrops for all of this is the application of the Palistineans for recognition by the United Nations, bypassing the peace process and putting the United States in the difficult position of maybe having to veto a UN resolution. Of course one of the purposes of Obama's trip to Europe (attacked by the right as an expensive boondoggle) was to prevent that from happening. And last night's news, little noticed by the pit bulls of the right here, was that seems to have been quietly put to rest.

I know that these guys want to return to the days where "Yihaw" rather than diplomacy or competence (who got Bin Laden?) was the hallmark of American foreign policy, but really.

As for me scouring the web for ways to hate on Republicans--I get most of my material in hard copy. And I rue the modern days when the religious right has stripped what was onece the Grand Old Party--of all who truly value personal liberty in the unending quest to control the reproductive rights of every woman, and to make sure that we are ashamed of all sexual activities that aren't blessed by our local pastor. But I will not hide my scorn for those who apoligize for the Tea party, despite their many forms of bigotry.

Letís reprise this as Israelís Attorney General recommends that Netanyahu be indicted for corruption. I donít expect any of the right to chastise him for corruption. I just want to see how similar their support for corruption by Trump is to corruption by Netanyahu.
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