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Wildfires and global warming
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jp5



Joined: 19 May 1998
Posts: 3394
Location: OnUr6

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liberal tree huggers preventing the forestry from doing proper maintenance of removing dead trees and cutting fire breaks, not climate change.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16733
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely predictable. Techno finds an anti-union conservative economist to opine about forest management, assman just listens to his tin foil hat. Neither grapple with facts or engage in debate. Both avoid any discussion of bark beetles and drought. I don’t need to show you any stinking science. Diversion, not debate.

In the meantime, the 15 people who died in the Butte County fires were mostly people who refused to listen to any government officials, including the older couple who called for help while they were trying to survive in a pond. Cal Fire Spokesperson says “Firefighters need to be there to slow or stop the fire, but when they are faced with someone who refuses to evacuate, it takes time and resources way from fighting the fire..And it puts firefighters in danger...”
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vientomas



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 2104

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
One man's opinion.

Quote:
Mismanaged Forests Burn, Newsom Blames “Climate Deniers”
September 15, 2020 By Edward Ring

What we quaintly refer to as “super fires” have incinerated nearly 5,000 square miles of California’s forests so far this year. In response, Governor Newsom has declared he has “no more patience for climate deniers.” But it isn’t climate change that caused these superfires. It was negligent forestry.

When it comes to facts that matter on the issue of our burning forests, perhaps Newsom is the one who is in denial. Because when Newsom denounces “climate deniers,” he denies the following far more pertinent facts about wildfires and climate:

The timber industry in California has been cut to a small fraction of what it was in 1990 in terms of employment and board feet of timber harvested. In 1990, 6.0 billion board feet were harvested from California’s forests, today the harvest rarely exceeds 1.5 billion board feet.

Dense, overgrown forests result in unhealthy trees, because the increased number of trees are competing for the same amount of sunlight, water and soil nutrients. This is the reason so many of them cannot resist disease and infestations, not climate change.

Year after year, millions of acre feet of snow and rain fall on these dense tree canopies and either evaporate immediately, or are sucked up by the overgrown, water stressed biomass as soon as they hit the ground. Far less water makes it into the aquifers and rivers as a result.

The overgrown forests are not only packing up to ten times more fuel than what is historically normal, but because these trees aren’t adapted to being packed so close together, half of them are dead or dying, which means they are tinder dry.

Any honest mainstream journalist, if there are any left, needs to ask Governor Newsom one simple question:

“Under which conditions would be a lightning strike be more likely to cause a catastrophic fire: on a grove of stressed and dying trees, dried out and packed 200 per acre, on a 75 degree day, or on a grove of healthy trees, moist and dispersed 20 per acre on an 85 degree day?”

A child can answer this question, but perhaps Gavin Newsom isn’t interested in the truth.


From the California Globe

Newsom tries to cover his ass with the Climate Change scenario. Easier to blame Co2 than mismanagement. Since there is essentially nothing IN THE SHORT TERM that can be done to change climate change, only one solution remains - Well actually two. 1. get the hell out of the forest, or 2. get to work on forest management. Both are at best, very, very difficult, but are there other options?

For those that choose to reply, your only meaningful response would be regarding how California can begin solving their wildfire crisis in years to come.


Now hold up there Teach. One of the things I hear from those who are Trump supporters is that Trump's reduction in government regulations is beneficial for the economy. "Forest management" at minimum implies greater government regulation over private lands.

In California state, the federal government owns nearly 58% of the 33 million acres of forest, according to the state governor's office. The state itself owns just three per cent, with the rest owned by private individuals or companies or Native American groups.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46183690#:~:text=In%20California%20state%2C%20the%20federal,companies%20or%20Native%20American%20groups.

Let's be clear Teach, are you advocaing for an increase in governmnt regulations in forest management? If so, why not in other types of industries?
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vientomas



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 2104

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jpbassman wrote:
Liberal tree huggers preventing the forestry from doing proper maintenance of removing dead trees and cutting fire breaks, not climate change.


The forest is an ecosystem within which dead tress serve a role. The National Forests are not just timber stashes for logging companies to make profits.

Decades of fire supression, to protect the trees for logging companies, has been a failure. Perhaps we just need to let fires burn and endure a few years of smoke to make things right again. Fire is natural. Fire supression is not.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16733
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't bother trying to teach the deniers anything. California has increased its budget for managing fire and forests, the Federal government has not. But straight from Trump's ass into Trumpist's mouth.

https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/4172
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16733
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could hotter water fuel hurricanes? Maybe Techno can find another economist to explain?

Quote:
September 19, 2020 at 4:26 p.m. PDT
ORANGE BEACH, Ala. — It has been a tough summer across much of the Gulf Coast, where storm after storm has taken aim and two hurricanes — Laura and Sally — have decimated homes and claimed lives in a three-week span. Hurricane watches were again issued for the region Friday, as Tropical Storm Beta creeps westward, feeding off the warm waters, strengthening before possibly strafing much of the Texas coastline.
The storms that have reached the Gulf of Mexico have had some things in common: amazingly fast intensification, late shifts in path that have taken some communities off-guard, and massive storm surge and torrential rains that have inundated coastal towns with record flooding.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4084

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vientomas wrote:
jpbassman wrote:
Liberal tree huggers preventing the forestry from doing proper maintenance of removing dead trees and cutting fire breaks, not climate change.


The forest is an ecosystem within which dead tress serve a role. The National Forests are not just timber stashes for logging companies to make profits.

Decades of fire supression, to protect the trees for logging companies, has been a failure. Perhaps we just need to let fires burn and endure a few years of smoke to make things right again. Fire is natural. Fire supression is not.


Vientomas. I felt the same way until I see that man has pretty much f&&ked up that ecosystem. So, I’m wondering now if we need to be more proactive with removing fuels to try and keep what forests remain.

Again, that’s easier said than done. This is expensive...

I just sold a 45 acre wooded property I’ve had for 30 years. It is vacant ground. A few years ago, the neighbors who had houses decided we need to address the fire danger. The cost...about $1000 an acre. (I bought the land for $300 an acre). No way it pencilled out. I’m very happy to be rid of it.

This parcel was pretty flat. Much of Colo is inaccessible for thinning at reasonable costs. So, the forests will become infested with beetles and they will burn. It’s gonna be ugly!
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16733
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So half the land that burned in Oregon is privately held. Clearly, the problem is California’s governor, and private enterprise will take care of everything.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8731
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mac wrote:
Absolutely predictable. Techno finds an anti-union conservative economist to opine about forest management, assman just listens to his tin foil hat. Neither grapple with facts or engage in debate. Both avoid any discussion of bark beetles and drought. I don’t need to show you any stinking science. Diversion, not debate.

In the meantime, the 15 people who died in the Butte County fires were mostly people who refused to listen to any government officials, including the older couple who called for help while they were trying to survive in a pond. Cal Fire Spokesperson says “Firefighters need to be there to slow or stop the fire, but when they are faced with someone who refuses to evacuate, it takes time and resources way from fighting the fire..And it puts firefighters in danger...”


Mac... it’s like The Circus , you’ve seen it a million times but it’s still entertaining ..
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16733
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boggs—while the forum may be entertaining, the death of thinking and the “make no compromises“ attitude of the loonies on the right portend the end of America’s we can do anything culture. The “smartest” righty on the forum is so defensive about his career choices that he won’t read anything to the left of the WSJ. It goes quickly downhill from there. It is not just our educational systems and infrastructure that are decaying, people are dying from the anti-government nonsense that Fox and its fans are peddling. The anti-vaccine mythology that has become popular will make stopping the spread of Covid difficult if not impossible—and most of the 200,000 who have perished so far are dead because of mismanagement. 15 who lived in Butte County are dead because they didn’t believe the sheriff and the fire officials. For context, we spent trillions to avenge a few thousand deaths on 9/11. More Americans die of Covid in a week than died at Pearl Harbor.

Revitalizing a rural economic base that has been declining in jobs and population for decades, ignored by both parties, will take hard work and insight. The idea that Trump might be a good gamble For the forgotten hinterland might have made sense in 2016; the idea that he is out for anyone but himself is madness in 2020. The wood that burned so far this month in Oregon makes rural life even harder.
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