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mrgybe



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 5084

PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
Hopefully that makes my perspective more clear.-Craig

It does...........thank you.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8731
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgoudie1 wrote:
I don't particularly disagree with most of your 1st paragraph.

I don't have a lot of objection to your second paragraph (see my opinions
on what made most people vote for Trump in the 1st entry I made). Trump
is in my opinion a symptom of a larger problem.

I try not to sit in judgement of other people. To me that seems a little
…...zealous.

-Craig

mac wrote:
cgoudie1 wrote:
Criminal or not I must say, I enjoy not having to listen to daily new scandals
associated with the current admin. I think that was a distraction which cost
resources the previous admin could have used to address more important
issues.

-Craig


mac wrote:

It is harder to go a week without rationalization than without sex. It is particularly revealing when people claim that their religion forces them to comtrol women—but are silent on the abuses of priests and the systematic cover-up of their crimes. In this country, since Roe v. Wade, abortion is not a crime. Much of Trump’s behavior was criminal. Only on Fox was anything Clinton did criminal.

Bullshit and spin,


I was raised Catholic, and as a personal matter I avoided any situation that might lead to an unwanted pregnancy. But I am no longer a believer--and if I were, I would have long since fled the Catholic Church. I have two children, one adopted, and I am very happy that her birth mother chose to let us raise her rather than have an abortion. But I draw the line at making the decision for someone else. I also object to the hypocrisy of many religions, particularly the Catholic Church, in opposing sex education and birth control--two effective ways of reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

It is crystal clear that the segment of those who oppose abortion who are zealots, and the segment of undereducated resentful white men who are zealots about white nationalism gave the election to Trump. Helped by constant fake stories about Hillary from the entertainment, not news, network--and big oil and Russian help. I would never align myself with these groups, and that is the problem with the current Republican party. In pursuit of power, they are willing to ignore the overt racism and fascist tendencies of the voters that they want to count on to regain power.

While it is nowhere near all of the Trump voters, the willingness to "choose the lesser of two evils", when it is as patently evil as Trump, is a moral, not just a political, failing.


You're right Craig. Trump is the Frankenstein monster this society created. Hopefully the country never experiments like that again..
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16734
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it is true that Trumpism is bigger than Trump, it is also true that he released the demons of bigotry and gave them cover.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2518

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought.
If society let loose a monster (Trump) might not a reason the less well educated backed him so willingly have been the sneering disdain and arrogance of the 'elite' against them, the so called undesirables? Those of less intelligence must, in the minds of the elite, always be factually wrong in holding an opposing view to theirs!

Was it any wonder the rejected bit back, and backed the monster? (As ye sow etc.)
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8731
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Just a thought.
If society let loose a monster (Trump) might not a reason the less well educated backed him so willingly have been the sneering disdain and arrogance of the 'elite' against them, the so called undesirables? Those of less intelligence must, in the minds of the elite, always be factually wrong in holding an opposing view to theirs!

Was it any wonder the rejected bit back, and backed the monster? (As ye sow etc.)


Not surprising at all in hindsight....like a bad predictable reality show.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16734
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GT and Boggs—I think it is a bit more complicated than that. It has been clear for decades that high wages and automation have eroded the manufacturing job base in this country. The trade agreements reached during the Clinton administration didn’t cause that erosion—but didn’t help and might have accelerated the trend. The increased cost of energy—which dates back to the oil embargo long ago—was another factor, and it all meant that the economic prospects for white men without college degrees were decreasing, not increasing.

This made the Clinton’s an easy target for the far right. Neither conventional conservatives nor the far right had any solutions, but crafted simple messages attacking the Clintons. The obvious intelligence and arrogance of the two helped seal their fate.

In some ways, this has been the death of conventional conservatism, and its replacement with social conservatism. The market clearly failed blue collar workers in this country—it moved jobs offshore, and to robots, even as America remained a major manufacturing economy and American workers the highest productivity in the world. While blue collar workers were hammered, the college educated remained well off and hedge funds, tech workers, and those with stock market holdings made out very well.

There are two ironies here. First, betting on Trump, a cheater who was scamming the system with the rest of the elite, doesn’t make sense, and is, at best, a bad judgement. Second, Republicans have not proposed or implemented decisions that helped those who missed out. The tax cuts went to those who really didn’t need them, and contributed a massive increase in the national debt, while virtually all of Trump’s job deals fell through. Biden has proposed investments in infrastructure and education that many think will help make the US more competitive. Rather than engage in a healthy debate over which investments would actually generate economic growth and make the US more competitive, the GOP is in lock step on the big lie, and trying to do damage to the economy in order to regain power.

Robber barons.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10156

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with much of what you said mac, as it correctly comments on many critical issues that have influenced what has been happening for quite some time now.

Also, I think that boogman aptly touched on the issue of bad reality television. The fact that Donald Trump arrogantly played that game with a flare that probably factored greatly in his popularity with many of his needy fans and supporters. Without a doubt, he's got a personality that captures the attention and minds of a segment of the population. I have to be honest though, I never watched his TV show. Nevertheless, the real Donald Trump is hard to miss over the years. Sadly, I don't think many of supporters really understand Donald Trump and just how unfit he is for a complex and demanding job like the US presidency, or the importance of selecting the best management team and advisors to meet the challenges we face today.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16734
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trump ran, poorly, a small family company that consistently cheated and consistently lost money. His larger than life personality created an opportunity for him to market his "name" without doing any real work, thereby saving him from poverty. But there is still a chance that all his cheating will catch up on him and leave him poor.
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wsurfer



Joined: 17 Aug 2000
Posts: 1458

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
I agree with Craig. (I started three attempts to answer but felt it was non of my business.

Th add one further point, people are sometimes forced into a position where they feel they have little choice but to vote for what they see as the lesser of two evils. As an example, in our last U.K. election, very many Labour (normal left wing lifetime voters) were faced with a complete takeover of their Labour party by an extreme hard left group led by Corbin who were determined to destroy and reshape the whole of society. That party was soundly rejected and suffered a crushing defeat. Those who had voted Labour all their lives, held their noses and actually voted for the hated Tory opposition.

As many of them explained afterwards, Corbin and his band of hard left zealots were seen by them as actually hating Britain, and all the values it stood for. That w2as too far removed from Labour values and patriotism and love of country. They voted Conservative, however distastefully.

Zealots, never ever learn to face reality.


Funny isn't it? I thought the (just barely) majority in both the US and the UK had an affinity for politicians with bad hair.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2518

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but it's what's beneath that thatch that counts. isn't it?

Must admit, I have similar, though have never had any pretence of wanting to dominate life on the planet. (Except mountain biking and windsurfing that is - though I count myself a spectacular failure in that ambition 'trumped' reality!) Wink
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