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Exxon in California
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2597
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta say, Mac and I don't always agree, but he's got a point here.

Exxon may or may not be evil (I think excess greed can be evil
but I'm leaving that monitoring to the resident paranoids ;*)) .
However, I think the way to regulate this is through the consumer.
Maybe there should be a (really) high tax on consumable plastics
(like bottles for bottled water). If it becomes painful enough for
the purchaser, the demand should drop, and Exxon would be forced
to search for profits elsewhere like " things where there are no
alternatives". Methinks a lot of consumable plastic is convenience
oriented, and therefore aimed at the more wealthy world. Maybe your
Amazon shipping is only free in eco-friendly containers.

Just .02

-Craig


mac wrote:
The evil empire continues. From this morning's Morning Consult:



Quote:
A new report showed production of single-use plastic increased by 6 million metric tons per year from 2019 to 2021, as producers have made "little progress" toward eliminating the pollution from the plastics despite stricter global regulations. The Plastic Waste Makers Index listed Exxon Mobil Corp. as the top global petrochemical company producing virgin polymers for single-use plastics. (Reuters)


Why save petroleum for those things where there are no alternatives when you can foul the oceans for profit?
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't know that Exxon made plastic bottles. Don't they just provide the needed chemicals/materials for the production of plastic containers that consumer product companies want? So, the issue is the companies that want single use plastics for their products and or the public that desires the products.

Certainly, raising the price of bottled water will reduce the consumption, but for those that don't have access to potable water, they will pay the price as others go back to tap water, or reuse bottles for transport.

The trash pollution is a people problem, not a plastic problem. I wonder what it would be like to go back to all glass containers? Of course, that would likely bring us back to the day of deposits on glass bottles for reuse. Wouldn't that be fun. I wonder what the energy demand would be for the production of all that glass?

No easy answers.
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vientomas



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 2343

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/11/897692090/how-big-oil-misled-the-public-into-believing-plastic-would-be-recycled
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
I didn't know that Exxon made plastic bottles. Don't they just provide the needed chemicals/materials for the production of plastic containers that consumer product companies want? So, the issue is the companies that want single use plastics for their products and or the public that desires the products.

Certainly, raising the price of bottled water will reduce the consumption, but for those that don't have access to potable water, they will pay the price as others go back to tap water, or reuse bottles for transport.

The trash pollution is a people problem, not a plastic problem. I wonder what it would be like to go back to all glass containers? Of course, that would likely bring us back to the day of deposits on glass bottles for reuse. Wouldn't that be fun. I wonder what the energy demand would be for the production of all that glass?

No easy answers.


This is the specious reasoning you get from people who drank the kool aid. A people problem not a plastic problem? EXXON has made billions marketing the raw materials that end up in light weight plastic bags that blow out of trash bins, cars, garbage trucks and so forth. The right wing fantasy that corporations are “people” doesn’t extend to holding them responsible for predictable results or corporate behavior.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900, seemingly you are unaware that CRV is already being collected for plastic water bottles just like glass and aluminum containers for beer and soda.

Of course, I live in "nutty" California where the government actively encourages recycling. Maybe in less aware and responsible red states like NC they could care less.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac,

How much plastic trash has Exxon dumped into the environment? Zero! The corporations that choose to make and use plastics, and the irresponsible consumers that don't dispose of the trash appropriately are the problem.

NEVER have the plastics that I have used been an environmental problem, unless you consider recycling or landfills a problem.

Recycling is a big part of the problem. I would support government funding to help make recycling cost effective, so cities and other entities would be happy to move in that direction. From what I have read, much of what goes into the "recycling bin" ends up in landfills.

I know that Calif. has a new recycling bill to promote/move toward more recycling of plastics, but making plastics recyclable doesn't mean that they will actually be recycled.

Quote:
California has passed an ambitious law to significantly reduce single-use plastics, becoming the first state in the US to approve such sweeping restrictions.

Under the new law, which California’s governor, Gavin Newsom, signed on Thursday afternoon, the state will have to ensure a 25% drop in single-use plastic by 2032. It also requires that at least 30% of plastic items sold or bought in California are recyclable by 2028 and establishes a plastic pollution mitigation fund.

Further, by 2032, 65% of all plastic items sold or distributed in California must be recyclable.

Any entity that fails to comply with the new law could face fines of up to $50,000 a day.


The bottom line is that the issue of plastics in the environment (outside of landfills) IS a people problem. Some irresponsible person had to be either stupid or just didn't give a shit for this to happen.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4161

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
techno900, seemingly you are unaware that CRV is already being collected for plastic water bottles just like glass and aluminum containers for beer and soda.

Of course, I live in "nutty" California where the government actively encourages recycling. Maybe in less aware and responsible red states like NC they could care less.


The CRV incentivizes the return of plastics deemed recyclable, but do they actually get recycled? Apparently not (see below quote). In my state, the cost of recycling exceeds any profit by recycling centers, that's why I suggested in my previous post that I support government funding to promote plastic recycling.

From CAL MATTERS:
Quote:
SB 54, however, gives the plastics industry more time to comply with the mandates and regulations in the ballot measure — until 2032 instead of 2030 — that are designed to ensure all single-use packaging and foodware is recyclable, reusable, refillable or compostable. In California, only a small portion of all plastic waste is recycled. About 85% ends up in landfills.


https://calmatters.org/environment/2022/06/california-recycling-plastic-trash/
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cgoudie1



Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 2597
Location: Killer Sturgeon Cove

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:01 pm    Post subject: Personal point Reply with quote

I'm going to make a personal point here so you can take that for what it's
worth. If you change the behavior of the consumer, you'll change the
behavior of those who profit by the consumer (at least in so called capitalist
societies). A big corporation is driven to bad behavior (or they are patently
evil, and I've experienced that also). You can't change consumer behavior
singing kumbaya (if Joan Baez can use it, I figure I can).

I use plastic trash bag liners; they are ridiculously cheap, and they save me
time, which is my most valuable commodity. 100 of them would cost me about
$20 from Amazon and I'd have them in 24 hours. I go through about 2 a week
so about a years supply. So what's my time worth to me? I can pretty much
guarantee that if a box of 100 of those were 200 dollars, I'd take the time to
wash out my mulit-use garbage containers rather than line them. If the
millions of trash bag users were equally affected, then the supply chain clear
to Exxon would be driven in a more profitable direction (maybe a better one for
the future of our species).

So that's my .04,

-Craig

p.s. you could give those taxed proceeds to the Surf Rider Foundation ;*)
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:


The bottom line is that the issue of plastics in the environment (outside of landfills) IS a people problem. Some irresponsible person had to be either stupid or just didn't give a shit for this to happen.


Sigh. The myth of the perfectly informed consumer and the magic hand of the market is invoked as a conservative dogma. No evidence is required for items of faith. Techno doesn't read much outside red state/red meat media, or accept the idea of externalities in the market.

First, as the link posted by vientomas shows, EXXON was part of the disinformation campaign to convince people that plastic was environmentally responsible. Same liars that they funded to convince people that global warming was a hoax--for fifty years after their scientists knew burning fossil fuels leads to global warming.

In fact, most plastics are not recyclable, and even those that were claimed to be recycled weren't. I know most of those folks in California. Personable? Yes. Honest and principled? Not really.

And then there is the idea of product responsibility--widely accepted in Europe, causes people in the southern states to scratch their heads. It could be applied to marketing of sugar and fat--remember Techno comes from pig shit heaven. Guess what--advertising works, and it keeps most consumers blissfully ignorant of the consequences of their actions. EXXON knows that, does that, and the Techno's of the world give them a pass--based on their own blissful ignorance.
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vientomas



Joined: 25 Apr 2000
Posts: 2343

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Teach aka "Techno" read the article I linked. Plastic recycling is a hoax! Wake TF up! It's a scam that you and I bought into due to Big Oil bullshit.
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