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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5008
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:58 pm    Post subject: Tack Reply with quote

Never said I couldn't tack...heck, I learned on 12' boards and raced course slalom boards for years.
But it's a fallacy saying it's needed. Did plenty of Paia to Hookipa sails, never needing to tack.
Competing in wave events, it's nice to tack to snake a wave, but in free sailing that's frowned upon, and most times, the outside sailor takes the wave regardless of your snake ability tack.
Yes, tacking is a skill.
Like shove-it, tabletop, ducktacks, or socks. You don't really need it.
Guys, there are over 450 freestyle tricks cataloged and listed. Do you need them all?
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20128

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Tack Reply with quote

dllee wrote:
there are over 450 freestyle tricks cataloged and listed. Do you need them all?

Even I do a few not even listed (primarily because they're actually useful; they're fun; they had no learning (i.e., work) curve; they don't risk body parts or equipment; and they don't require more skill, balance, or spatial orientation than I've ever had. Some of us are just better suited for spontaneous actions than choreographed ones. Once they get past such words as "switchstance" or "backwinded", I get completely lost just listening to freestyler buds describe their moves. Yet I was fast tacking longboards in my second season (had never heard of planing jibes) and have sucked my fin up out of the water in time to completely miss logs and fishing nets I first saw as they disappeared beneath my board nose at speed. THAT'S useful, but I sure as heck ain't gonna practice the log-clearing move.
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10038

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In windsurfing, I think there are generally 3 types of sailors. You have competitive racers, folks that like tricks and moves, and those that want to do their own thing, like wave sailors or folks that like to more individually explore and move about. Of course, there is lots of overlap, but it's what makes things fun, often in different conditions.

Speaking for myself, I was more focused on the latter group. While I learned to tack on longboards in the beginning, and even liked the move, when I moved to shortboards, I found gybing more to my style and abandoned tacking all together. If you can pivot gybe, things can work quickly and quite well overall.

I have to say that I'm with LeeD on this, but we are old guys arguably doing what is comfortable and easy.
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dllee



Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 5008
Location: East Bay

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to sail this hole on Oahu, almost to the old Kahala Hilton, a block from those 2 gold lions hiding a sunken grass tennis court.
Another block to Jack Lord's house...Hawaii Five O.
Inside the reef, maybe 70 yards max distance, I'd sail for an hour fully planing and planing out of 90% of the jibes...flat water inside the reef. Maybe 90 jibes in a row, getting upwind towards the beach park channel or downwind 10 yards from the launch.
Mostly 5.0 and 90 liter boards, which I kept a dozen there.
Maybe made 10 tacks total in 30 days sailing there, tried maybe 12.
Nobody else even tried, and that includes several famous Kailua sailors of the time. They just figured they couldn't stay upwind with such short reaches.
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NOVAAN



Joined: 28 Sep 1994
Posts: 1370

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm an old guy also. I too abandoned the tack once I could gybe. I can head to wind hard, sink the tail, do a hard snap gybe and lose very little ground.
I'm 98% on this move and 50% on my tacks on my short board. Fun to do right in front of a wave face make the drop clue first and flip heading down the line. Best on smaller waves..just sayin
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manuel



Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1104

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tacks really help when surf sailing sideon. There are also easier since you can lean against the swell. Jibes can leave you with no wind in the sail and struggle to balance at the transition over difficult water state. Heli tacks also very helpful maintain sail drive throughout the move.

Most of all, when the wind is light it makes a difference to be 10m higher upwind of the peak. Watch who catches the most waves when it's light. Possibly you can get away with a slightly smaller sail too.

Even when not always light, tacks keep us more upwind, leaving more downwind fun such as riding and jumps.

Outside wave environment, it let's you play downwind and then slog upwind when it's a bit wind shadowed.

Personally, I only jibe when overpowered or if the terrain is nice and smooth.

In the end nothing is mandatory aside from windsurfing itself of course Wink !

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PeconicPuffin



Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 1807

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Tack Reply with quote

dllee wrote:


But it's a fallacy saying it's needed.


Nobody said "needed". Jibes aren't "needed" either. But in the basic windsurfing toolkit it's desirable to have both an upwind and downwind transition. Professional windsurfers tack, doing so when it's the best possible option. That's all anyone needs to know about its value. That it may be a skill many windsurfers don't have has no bearing on its superiority and desirability.

If you don't want to learn to tack a shortboard, or don't care that you can't, that's fine. But arguing against them when all the best windsurfers (ie the pros) tack is silly.

I'm never going to learn to loop. I tried for a year...half assed trying because it scared the hell out of me and hurt...and then gave up. Got to 3/4 rotation on my best efforts, but it was no fun and too painful. So I stopped trying. But I don't diss loops, or suggest that they aren't cool and a skill test and exciting. Fast tacking I still go for even on a board (77 liter) where it's mostly futile. It's fun to try, and great fun when I make them.

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http://www.peconicpuffin.com


Last edited by PeconicPuffin on Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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wsatl



Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a fallacy that a bunch of us said it's required. Stop with the straw man argument. You are arguing against a point that literally nobody made.

A lot of us said it's a very handy and useful skill and showed that even pro level sailors use the move to facilitate going upwind.

I've seen too many videos of expert and pro level wave sailors tacking not to mention the excellent tacking skills of PWA and IQFoil racers (some of whom do come out planing) to dismiss the idea that tacking is something that newbies and longboarders do.

If you don't like/want to tack, great for you. If I want to get upwind in marginal conditions, I most likely will be tacking.

As to the snarky jibe comment, you are correct. I don't exit most jibes planing when powered. I'm rarely touching the water long enough. Wink
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coachg



Joined: 10 Sep 2000
Posts: 3065

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is need & there is useful, and as Puffin said you could make the same argument about a jibe; that you only need one type of turn. For sure a tack is the best way to get upwind, but the vast majority of windsurfers sail at side shore venues with marginal tides doing some version of BAF so they never really need a tack and in the gorge all you have to do is drop in the water to go upwind.
I find tacking useful, time & energy saving in certain situations. Sailing a freestyle board with small fin on a big flood at Sherman Island, being able to stay close to shore & take advantage of the eddies on a flood when the wind dies or working back up a narrow channel on offshore wind to return to my launch spot.

Coachg
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20128

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of us are taking into account the previous, LONG, sometimes huffy, discussion of the same topic. Some of the participants in previous discussions are repeating the same old disputed arguments, as though there were any new thoughts here. Anyone whose sailing is actually impacted by tacking vs jibing might want to find those discussions, skip the empty arguing, and read the substantive posts.

wsatl wrote:
It's a fallacy that a bunch of us said it's required. Stop with the straw man argument. You are arguing against a point that literally nobody made.
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