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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16253
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:27 pm    Post subject: Electrical Vehicles Reply with quote

Because some on the forum don’t have the discipline to stay on topic...

The US is probably not driving this train anymore. The Chinese market accounts for 1/3 of the vehicle market, larger than the US’s. They have not practiced chaos as a governing principle for the last 4 years. From the East Bay Times business section reprinted from the NYT.

Keith Bradsher
By Keith Bradsher
Jan. 29, 2021
阅读简体中文版閱讀繁體中文版
SHANGHAI — The business of making cars has reached a critical juncture — and it looks as if China is in the driver’s seat.

General Motors’ surprise announcement on Thursday that it aspires to eliminate gasoline and diesel cars from its fleet by 2035 and embrace electric cars follows a road map successfully drawn by Beijing. To get there, G.M., the Detroit stalwart and symbol of American industrial might, may have no choice but to embrace car and battery technologies in which Chinese companies play leading roles.

Even when setting the time frame, G.M. seems to be matching Beijing’s speed. Just three months ago, Chinese policymakers ordered that most vehicles sold in China must be electric by 2035.

“When it comes to global automakers’ electric vehicle plans, all roads lead back to Beijing,” said Michael Dunne, a former president of G.M.’s Indonesia operations.
Quote:
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16253
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shell’s going out of the buggy whip business. Retired oil apologists who rely on Exxon newsletters for their daily feed might not have the inside dope.

Quote:
Royal Dutch Shell PLC said its oil production has already peaked and is expected to decline by 1-2 percent yearly going forward, though fossil-fuel production will remain a material source of its revenue into the 2030s. Shell said it plans to increase its dividend by 4 percent each year and shift to renewables investments, including doubling its electricity sales and investing in thousands of new electric vehicle chargers. (The Wall Street Journal)
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4036

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.engineering.com/story/will-your-electric-car-save-the-world-or-wreck-it


This is the sort of dialogue I think needs to occur when discussing battery operated vehicles.

Again, I believe that EV’s are viable tools that should be used FOR THE URBAN ENVIRONMENT . Tesla and Rivian are trying to achieve the benefits offered by gasoline powered vehicles by adding battery packs that weigh nearly a ton. Shouldn’t we consider ALL the issues when we cheerlead this “technology”.

Big batteries are not a panacea. Lugging a battery around that weighs what my first car weighed is NOT a green solution to carbon reduction.
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wynsurfer



Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 940

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Big batteries are not a panacea. Lugging a battery around that weighs what my first car weighed is NOT a green solution to carbon reduction.

Despite the weight of the battery, EV's are 4-5 times more efficient than gas powered. Only 20% - 40% of the power released in burning fuel to power an ICE vehicle actually propels the vehicle. The rest is lost through heat escaping through the exhaust and elsewhere and losses due to friction.

Electric vehicles are between 86%-90% efficient.

One must also consider that there is no engine, transmission or differential in an electric vehicle. This somewhat offsets the weight of the battery.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4036

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wynsurfer wrote:
"Big batteries are not a panacea. Lugging a battery around that weighs what my first car weighed is NOT a green solution to carbon reduction.

Despite the weight of the battery, EV's are 4-5 times more efficient than gas powered. Only 20% - 40% of the power released in burning fuel to power an ICE vehicle actually propels the vehicle. The rest is lost through heat escaping through the exhaust and elsewhere and losses due to friction.

Electric vehicles are between 86%-90% efficient.

One must also consider that there is no engine, transmission or differential in an electric vehicle. This somewhat offsets the weight of the battery.


I agree with the functionality of a small electric urban car. No question that it is a superior product for daily commuting.

My issue is not with electric commuters. It is with this attitude, expressed by many here and in other places, that I shouldn’t question electric vehicles...of any type. When you make an electric Honda Accord (Tesla) capable of traveling 1000 miles as Boggsman suggested will be available, much of that increase in efficiency will be lost in propelling a heavier vehicle down the road. Not to mention the issue of the amount of lithium we will need to do this.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16253
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB—this is not a binary approach. Electric vehicles are much more efficient in converting BTU’s to forward power—even with the battery weight penalty. And the answer for rural areas may well be different. The New Yorker just ran an article about COVID response in North Dakota. I wouldn’t recommend an electric vehicle for a farm equipment salesman who puts 100,000 miles on his car in rural ND. (I would recommend a mask—he got COVID.). But urban miles are greater—193.4 billion compared to 80 billion rural for 2019, according to the FHWA. The objective is to trend CO2 down, not wait until we have perfect solutions.

Meanwhile. Jaguar announces a switch to electric. How many buggy whips were sold in 2020?
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4036

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh. And, BTW, total efficiency of a NEW gasoline car approaches 30% while electric cars are really about 60% efficient. Earlier someone here compared the carbon load of an EV vs a gasoline car. They used a 25 MPG car as the comparison. Really? You can get 40 MPG out of a many cars.

This is my gripe with EV. Almost every EV proponent will take the good numbers of EV and compare them to the bad numbers of gasoline vehicles. Let’s let EV stand on merits...honestly.

A side note. Mazda is achieving 56% efficiency in their testing of their new Skyactive gasoline engine. That rivals electric. Carbon loading may be similar if you need to plug in to a coal sourced electrical outlet.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4036

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac

I understand the efficiency difference between EV and gasoline. But, why do we see posts here that claim 17% for gasoline vehicles to sing the merits of EV? As I mentioned, gasoline motors now are at 30% and as much as 40% (or more if you use hybrid technology). 50% is on the horizon and maybe more (Mazda).

Your comment that we need to look at incremental approaches to “trend down” carbon I agree with. But, to do that we need to adjust what sort of vehicles we drive, how they are manufactured, and how the materials are sourced. Reducing the argument to “EV good...gas bad” is not productive. ANY transportation mode produces carbon (except for biking and walking). We should be addressing how we travel and the frequency of this travel instead of assuaging our guilt by plugging in and heading out.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 16253
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead wrote:
Mac

I understand the efficiency difference between EV and gasoline. But, why do we see posts here that claim 17% for gasoline vehicles to sing the merits of EV? As I mentioned, gasoline motors now are at 30% and as much as 40% (or more if you use hybrid technology). 50% is on the horizon and maybe more (Mazda).

Your comment that we need to look at incremental approaches to “trend down” carbon I agree with. But, to do that we need to adjust what sort of vehicles we drive, how they are manufactured, and how the materials are sourced. Reducing the argument to “EV good...gas bad” is not productive. ANY transportation mode produces carbon (except for biking and walking). We should be addressing how we travel and the frequency of this travel instead of assuaging our guilt by plugging in and heading out.


Agreed. I've not tried to make biased claims--or sell buggy whips. From the start I have said the first step is efficiency.
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isobars



Joined: 12 Dec 1999
Posts: 20128

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the root source of the energy stored in batteries?

How far away are we from electrically powered motor homes (still the best way for many of us to live where we sail)?

Millions of Texans are without power, the death toll is rising, surgeries are being cancelled, gas pumps and EV recharging stations are belly up, etc. because their frozen wind turbines have shut down the power grid ... and more of the same or worse is on its way. Let's face it: until we have much better regional-level electrical power storage capability, our most reliable energy sources are hydro, nuclear, and carbon. This entire concept must advance at a pace determined by science, technology, and profitability, not executive orders, The Squad, and John Kerry.

Until then, here we go again. Just when we had become self-reliant in energy, we are once again dependent on the middle east for energy and Canada has no choice but to sell their bountiful oil to our foremost enemy. Not even a month into the new administration, and Iran'a already enriching their uranium to nuclear weapons grade. Once again, the left's only and favorite means of boosting our economy ... WAR -- and we'd better hope it's conventional rather than nuclear -- is being encouraged by foreign energy dependence.

Once upon a time it was useful to teach Spanish, or German, or French, etc. in high school. Soon all that will matter is Chinese, and our constitution's first amendment will be replaced by "Citizens will kowtow and STFU, or die". (At least our social media are concentrating on the first two actions.)
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