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Priority on Starboard tack
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9118
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Windzzrf_Millennial wrote:
In santa cruz there are ‘surfing etiquette’ signs at water access points that explain the rules of the road. What would it take to get ‘sailing etiquette’ signs posted at local wind sports venues that are used frequently by both windsurfers and wingers? For example, at the third dock gangway in Berkeley, near the wind sock at point isabel, at the treasure island ramp, at 3rd Ave ramp, etc?

Rule 1: when two sailors are on the same tack, leeward sailor has priority
Rule 2: when two sailors are on opposing tacks, the starboard tack sailor has priority
Etc…

As an example, here is a link to the surfing etiquette rules at a water access point in santa cruz:

https://www.capitolabeachcompany.com/surfing-etiquette/


Regarding rule 1...When at Crissy , a windsurfer , and Winger are sailing Starboard out towards the North Tower. The Windsurfer is upwind of the Winger. The Winger is pinching at a much steeper angle to the Windsurfer. The Winger is quickly gaining on the windsurfer as they sail out to the Tower. Who is responsible for avoiding the other?
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10588

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't the sail out to the North Tower from Crissy be on port tack?
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 9118
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swchandler wrote:
Wouldn't the sail out to the North Tower from Crissy be on port tack?

Yes! Same question ...Port tack heading out...
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jse



Joined: 17 Apr 1995
Posts: 1460
Location: Maui

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boggsman1 wrote:

Regarding rule 1...When at Crissy , a windsurfer , and Winger are sailing Starboard out towards the North Tower. The Windsurfer is upwind of the Winger. The Winger is pinching at a much steeper angle to the Windsurfer. The Winger is quickly gaining on the windsurfer as they sail out to the Tower. Who is responsible for avoiding the other?


Depends on who has the overlap. Until the winger is ahead of the sailor (has overlap), winger must avoid collision. After winger passes the windsurfer, windsurfer must avoid collision.

Steve
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so. The upwind sailor must keep clear. But both are responsible to avoid a collision.

While these rules may have developed for race situations, particularly starting, they have a practical value. The upwind sailor has more options—slow and pinch higher, slow down and pass behind, bear off and pick up speed to be well clear. It is axiomatic at a start that you cannot barge the line from above. That works for all racing hulls, and any sailor in a pack can call for room and luff you up so you miss the starting buoy. I’ve had it happen.

The general truth is that upwind sailor can change his course to pick up speed.
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Windzzrf_Millennial



Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes both are responsible to avoid a collision. I think that is much easier to do when winger and windsurfer are on the same tack. Most of the time the windsurfer is faster too, so i think the upwind windsurfer should have a pretty easy time avoiding the winger.

Just dropped off my board for professional repair today after allowing it to dry for 10 days following my crash described in this thread. I am still thinking about that crash and how it could have been avoided. I assumed that the winger would recognize my starboard priority (especially since the winger is a very skilled windsurfer). But i think the winger severely misjudged my speed, and thought they could pinch upwind of my line well before we crossed paths.

In the final moments as our positions neared, it went through my brain that maybe the winger did not plan on ceding priority. At that point we were moments from impact and I opted for a slight upwind adjustment. Bearing off was considered but immediately discounted because a collision with me bearing off on starboard tack would result in a possible bodily collision with the winger’s foil and turning into sushi.

So for preservation of self, if a port winger and a starboard windsurfer are on a collision course, at a certain point it is very sketchy for the starboard windsurfer to bear off with exposure to foil related injuries from the winger. Especially on free ride gear, hanging off the side of the board.
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17742
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve been run over by 2 sailboats in the South Basin in Berkeley, hit by a winger who never saw me, and saw a couple really bad crashes during races, as well as a couple of my own. Two things matter, when the combined closing speed is 30 to 40 mph—or 40 feet per second. Call starboard in case you aren’t seen. And then the starboard sailor is required to keep his course, while the port sailor is required to make a course change that makes it clear that they have seen you and have changed course to avoid you. But if I see someone I can’t trust, I change course to have a clear path without worrying if they know what they are doing. It’s not always a good idea to assume competence—or a willingness to obey the rules of the road. See for example dozens of posts by Isobars.
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cosmoecho



Joined: 21 Jun 2016
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like with some of the wingers its a complete mess with the rights of way.
They have very different angles and sometimes just not being seen or heard.
In la Ventana I had a very close encounter when winger was overtaking me while we were on the same tack. I did not have much speed at the point, just pinching upwind. The wing just came out of nowhere and came at 45 degree to cross my path, almost hitting me.

While I see the right of way rule in sailing, I just don't see how its possible to see the person on the same tack downwind of me, coming at very different angle. There is no way I can see him, through my sail and turning my head where it wont go. But the rule also takes into the account that parties will try to avoid collision. While that person did not want to do so.

One more rule for foils is not to leave the foils on downwind side of the launch path within 10 feet or so (where its applicable).
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windsrf



Joined: 01 May 1998
Posts: 464

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2023 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good and informative thread. My only addition would be to NEVER rely on yelling 'Starboard".

No way I'd ever hear that given board/wind noise, helmet, and age. Perhaps that works for sit-down sailors and lower speeds, but not for me.
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rigatoni



Joined: 25 Feb 1999
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going to add "give people a lot of room". Latest thing I see on the slopes, is to give 15ft of space to others. I don't recommend becoming a member of the "Sail Close Club" Wink
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