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SAS



Joined: 18 Feb 1997
Posts: 137
Location: planet earth

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno:
You clearly did not read carefully or do not comprehend my initial post that clearly outlines ways the small states have excessive power in all 3 branches of the federal government. You are simply wrong that the selection of the President and federal judges does not give more power to smaller states than larger ones. If you want an intelligent discussion, you need to understand the facts. Please reread it and if you still cannot comprehend it ask someone to help you.

As to defining "small state," I don't have an exact definition but I am referring to states where their senators represent a small number of people compared to other states. If you look at this link you will see that a senator from New York represents 9.7 million people, a senator from Texas represents over 13 million people, and a senator from California represents over 19 million people. Meanwhile, there are 14 states where a senator represents less than a million people and 24 states where a senator represents less that 2 million people.

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/03/11/us/politics/small-state-advantage.html
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swchandler



Joined: 08 Nov 1993
Posts: 10351

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900,

You might want to think a bit deeper about the unique powers that the Senate has over the House of Representatives, particularly relative to the Judiciary branch. Just think about the Senate's power to approve or disapprove those appointed by the President to run and support the Executive Branch.

In my view, SAS is spot on in his comments.
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coboardhead



Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4144

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno wrote

Quote:
The Executive branch (or voting for) gives no advantage to small states


This just isn't true. Let's take my home State and my current State. Colorado electoral vote costs about 750,000 residents. South Dakota's cost is about 300,000. This gives a South Dakota voter approximately 2 1/2 times the power in voting for President than that of a Colorado voter.

Ever wonder why it is the Conservatives who rail against doing away with the Electoral College...the math.
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real-human



Joined: 02 Jul 2011
Posts: 13442
Location: on earth

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GURGLETROUSERS wrote:
Completely agree that Putin is the CURRENT single largest threat to democracy in the entire world, but there is no shortage of others to take over, should he fall.

Assuming the world does survive the latest nuclear threat, it is clear to many of us that democracy is NOT the natural human nature state. It is a thin veneer when faced with naked aggression. It is not a certainty that it can survive into an increasingly technological future because of its fundamental weakness.

As one of my reflective laid back tutors used to say, what the world needs is a benevolent dictatorship, Then after a short pause would add, but power corrupts doesn't it, and absolute power ---

What I can't see a solution to is how democracy will cope with the future displacement of millions of people from the uninhabitable areas of the world should global warming be inevitable? How is that going to work?


I see one possible way... I believe right now the USA needs to make it clear to the dictators who support Putin that if Putin puts one nuke in action that every single nation supporting him will receive several nukes to take out their rulers and ruling families that would come to power in auto response as well as russia. So this warning would be to China, all ME oild dictatorships.
and if russia launches many that those mentioned countries will be erased off the earth.

_________________
when good people stay silent the right wing are the only ones heard.
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GURGLETROUSERS



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 2625

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, I agree Dean. I would like to think that, behind the scenes, such has been made crystal clear to all potential aggressors, which is the intended purpose of the nuclear deterrent, and why we MUST keep it.

But in our democracies does anybody have the authority to make such behind the scenes dictatorial threats? I doubt it, and doesn't Putin, and other potential enemy states already realise this?

There was an excellent film made of the Israeli raid on Entebbe where Palestinian terrorists had seized over a hundred Israeli visitors, and were threatening to murder them in batches unless their demands for Israel to release all Palestinian terrorists in captivity were met in full. (Idi Amin did nothing to stop them, and was complicit.)

The point I'm making is that the raid had been organised and rehearsed and agreed by the Israeli Prime minister, and actually sent on its way BEFORE he had consulted the Knesset. All hell broke loose in that assembly!

The raid knew that it would have to turn back at an agreed beforehand time unless the Knesset agreed. It went up to the wire before they did so, and the raid was a success. (All the terrorists killed and ll the Israelis, apart from one, rescued.)

Israelis history of fighting terrorists won the day, but would the same hold true in our (complacent) democracies if put to the vote? I doubt it. Too many would agree with jaw-jaw, not war war.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4069

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SAS said:
Quote:
Second, the Presidency is decided by the Electoral College. Each state gets Electoral College members equal to the number of Congressional seats it holds. The number of Congressional seats a state has in the House of Representatives is population based, but the Senate, as noted above is biased toward the smaller states. This makes the entire Electoral College biased,


Since the VAST majority of the Electoral votes are based upon the House of Representatives numbers (435), large states have the greatest strength, small states have minimal impact. By adding two votes per state for Senate members (usually somewhat balanced by party), the impact of those 100 votes is pretty much a wash. Your argument isn't very strong. California gets 55 Electoral votes compared to Wyoming, Montana, Delaware, North and South Dakota, with 3 votes each. I don't see any bias for the smaller state.
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techno900



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 4069

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coboardhead said:
Quote:
This just isn't true. Let's take my home State and my current State. Colorado electoral vote costs about 750,000 residents. South Dakota's cost is about 300,000. This gives a South Dakota voter approximately 2 1/2 times the power in voting for President than that of a Colorado voter.


True, but Colorado still has three times the votes as South Dakota (9 - 3). Is this fair? Debatable, but it has worked pretty darn well for a long time.
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SAS



Joined: 18 Feb 1997
Posts: 137
Location: planet earth

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Techno

While you may not “see any bias for the smaller state,” the facts do not support you. Yes, roughly 80% of the electoral vote is population based, but the remaining 20% is not. Let’s look at some actual presidential elections to see how they were decided.

In the 2020 election Biden received 56.9% of the electoral vote but only 51.3% of the popular vote.

In the 2016 presidential election, Hillary Clinton won 48.2% of the popular vote compared to Trump's 46.1% but lost the electoral vote by a substantial margin. In the electoral college Clinton had 42.7% while 57.3% went to Trump.

In 2012, Mitt Romney won 48% of the popular vote but only 38% of the electoral vote.

In 2008 Obama won 50.7% of the popular vote and 53% of the electoral vote. McCain won 48.3 of the popular vote but only 47% of the electoral vote.

In 2004 Bush won 50.7% of the popular vote and 53% of the electoral vote.

In 2000 Bush received 47.9% of the popular vote while Gore received 48.4%. In the electoral vote, Bush won with 50.4%

So, in 1/3 of these recent elections the popular vote winner lost the presidency. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, but to many people a person getting fewer votes by the citizens of a nation but then becoming that nation’s leader is not working “pretty darn well.” And again, I wonder if you would believe this if the democratic candidates were losing the popular vote but still becoming President.

Since I like to be honest and factual, in addition to the bias towards smaller states in the electoral college, there is one other major way the electoral college is biased. This is because all states except for Maine and Nebraska have a winner-take-all policy where the overall winner of the state-wide popular vote gets all of the electoral votes. This essentially ignores the votes of millions of people, especially in large states. So, in recent elections if you voted for the Republican candidate in California or New York, your vote did not matter in the electoral vote. The same thing occured if you voted Democratic in Texas or Florida.
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boggsman1



Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 8824
Location: at a computer

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

techno900 wrote:
SAS said:
Quote:
Second, the Presidency is decided by the Electoral College. Each state gets Electoral College members equal to the number of Congressional seats it holds. The number of Congressional seats a state has in the House of Representatives is population based, but the Senate, as noted above is biased toward the smaller states. This makes the entire Electoral College biased,


Since the VAST majority of the Electoral votes are based upon the House of Representatives numbers (435), large states have the greatest strength, small states have minimal impact. By adding two votes per state for Senate members (usually somewhat balanced by party), the impact of those 100 votes is pretty much a wash. Your argument isn't very strong. California gets 55 Electoral votes compared to Wyoming, Montana, Delaware, North and South Dakota, with 3 votes each. I don't see any bias for the smaller state.


If population really determined EC votes, CA would have closer to 80 votes and representatives ...
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mac



Joined: 07 Mar 1999
Posts: 17112
Location: Berkeley, California

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the founders! Let us all bless an era where women and black folks couldn’t vote and Senators were selected by state legislators. It was just perfect!
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